michael1778

Personally, I love my Magpul PRS. It's very precise and granular in the cheek and butt plate adjustments. I had a hard time getting a good cheek weld with iron sights on an M16A1 (many years ago) and with my S&W M&P15 with Magpul ACS (which I generally like) in the past months. For me it is all about being able to get a good cheek weld and do it consistently. A minor point is that my match rifle has a heavy barrel so the PRS weight keeps it balanced well, also.

me too.

It's focal Plane, not Point. First Focal Plane scopes have the reticle scaling with the level of optical power. For example, when you are at 1x on some FFP scopes, the reticle details are lost (often by design) so you are left with a small-ish dot. Then you crank up the zoom and the reticle grows in apparent size, just like the target. The reticle markings are always scaling with the image so they are always correct without any magnification factor correction. Need to hold "over" 3 MOA for a particular range target? Fine, you always can hold over on the 3 MOA mark regardless of magnification. Second Focal Plane scopes (like my Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x) reticles are only 'correct' at one level of magnification. I believe the maximum magnification is the usual standard; it's how my PST works. So the markings on my reticle are only correctly scaled for the scope at 10x. But I can use corrections in my head for other simple magnifications like 5x (each mark is actually double in value), 3.3x (each reticle mark is triple in value), or 2.5x (where each mark is 4 times the value shown on the reticle in the scope view). I don't have a body of experience with FFP or SFP scopes. SImilarly I don't have any experience with MIL/MRAD or MOA. So I got a SFP scope in MOA markings. If I were to get a Bushnell 1-6.5x, honestly, I think I would get it in FFP with the MIL reticle (BTR-2, I think it is called?). I did SFP on the 2.5-10x because it met my price point and I could get in in time for next weekend's Tarheel 3-Gun Challenge. I hope this is helpful to some extent. -- Mike

In the end, I went with a copy cat set-up to what Nick used for a while. I've got the new Burris FastFire III and the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10. Now I have to find a decent rifle range somewhere. That's like finding hen's teeth around my area in NC. Crazy...... Thanks to all of you that replied, as well as to Nick. Soon we will see how this works at Tarheel 3-Gun Challenge, in about 10 days.

Thank you for taking pity on those of us who are not reloaders. Perhaps someday, but for now, I'm simply trying to shoot straight and stay safe.

The AR, my friend. I'm very new also, but what you said tips me that way. I think you will have a more successful and thus far more enjoyable time. Be safe and have fun.

Visit the C-RUMS website: http://www.c-rums.com/Carriers.html . The photo at the top shows a Benelli carrier; the Versa Max is identical. The photo is not very good - mine literally looks like it came out of the factory that way. If you want to see how a gun butcher welds up a carrier, look at my earlier posts Mine looks like that web site picture, also.

Being not so familiar with Benelli's, if I may ask, why is the forked lift gate undesirable? Seems thinking back to my Beretta experience, we were changing the 391 lifter for the 390 to make it more reliable, but I don't remember what the issue was there either. Thanks in advance, SWD The fork can bite your thumb pretty badly when loading quickly. Then it shouldn't be a problem for me as I can't load quickly! Best way to describe my loading technique is, "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!" Thanks for the reply, SWD You can get trapped or injured even at a glacial pace. I did one round in my then-new Versa Max. It was slow. I don't mean "slow for competition". I mean slow like watching a sleepy snail. I was doing it as a biomechanical test of what the lifter would do in a normal looking, but slow, loading motion. SNAP!!!!! The Evil forked lifter from hell trapped my thumb against the front of the receiver internals. I had to set down the gun on a table (while it still had my thumb pinned!) and use my other hand to manage the lifter and gun while I extricated my thumb. I was fortunate that it only pinned me along my thumbnail and not bare skin. I sent that naughty Remington to Jeff Cockrums soon thereafter. Don't kid yourself. Please replace or weld the forked lifter/carrier. Slow or fast loading may not matter. Just get it fixed before it "fixes" you.

Thanks for the initial hands-on impressions. Sounds like it is functioning as advertised. Pairing it with a PST 2.5-10 might be one solution.

Or a genius......

If I go Vortex, I'll surely do the Viper PST 2.5-10.

Closing the loop on the optics buy: For now, I selected the two Burris items. The MTAC 1.5-6 and the FastFire III 3 MOA dot (pic rail mount). New Edit: Except the place I found the MTAC had someone else get the last one in stock before I did. This is crazy. Almost like someone is telling me I should pick a different scope. Not sure if I want to tackle a bipod yet or not.

The Tar Heel 3-Gun match in early March had an all shotgun stage that was something like 25 or 26 rounds, maybe more. You'd have to reload even with a full-size X-Rail. It was fabulous. I ran it with a Benelli pump gun because that's all I had that was match-ready. With my Versa Max, as currently configured, I'd have always been reloading between the three sections, but likely I'd never go to an empty chamber. Good times! Tube or box fed, let's have fun.

I'll be very content to use my 26" Versa Max when I first shoot Open on June 2nd. I haven't even gone so far as to get a loader gate fitted yet. So, when the stage demands it, I'll "Load Two" with my FSL caddies and drive on......*after* I get the first 13+1 out of the gun.

Thanks Pat. I appreciate your thoughtful input. For now, I may just roll with the pair of Burris products, get some more matches under my belt, and then make changes over time, if needed. I might move the MTAC 1.5-6 over to my backup rifle if I decide on the Bushnell 1-6.5 at a later date. I'd pair that with the FastFire III. Time will tell. Jamie, Thank you also. I'll kick this around tonight and make a decision before OpticsPlanet can stick the scope in the mail. I saw that Nick was using the PST 2.5-10 in Open division in earlier matches. Was that 2010 or early 2011 events? Would you recommend the MRAD or the MOA version of that Vortex scope? I have no experience base either way, so nothing to un-learn. The reticles are very different. That's nice, but also complicates the decision. Late EDIT: OpticsPlanet is back ordered on the offset mount until July and the two Burris items have slipped to 10 days from now. I've lost confidence that I can make the June match with that order so I'll start over on my optics search/purchase.

Thank you, gentlemen. Going forward, I'll to the micro red dot for short range with the larger high-power variable optic for the main scope. I"m thinking of the Bushnell as an option for next year if I want that 1-6x range in a single optic. Between the Burris MTAC 1.5-6x and the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x, any recommendations? Is the FastFire III considered good enough compared to the Leupold DeltaPoint? Is the bipod height I mentioned considered appropriate?

I just took delivery of my Loki customized 3-Gun rifle within the past hour (it's my Avatar image here). It's sick! 18" Satern barrel, billet receivers, AR Gold trigger, Magpul PRS stock, carbon fiber hand guard, etc, etc Seems like getting a nice upper for your already-complete lower with that trigger would be a great way to go. I think either the Stag 3G upper or an upper from Loki would be great options that would give high performance on a reasonable budget. Obviously I have more hands on time with the Loki gear. Their in-house 18" double fluted barrel with a carbon fiber hand guard should do nicely.

I remember some instructors at NAS Pensacola saying the sound of the fighter jet engines was the Sound of Freedom. Instead, I think the sounds of these three fine weapons are better candidates for that distinction.

Like you might expect from the subject line, I'll be shooting Open. But by next year, I hope to also get a 308 for Heavy Metal (Irons and Optics) competition when it suits my fancy. This is a hobby for me, after all, so I'll do whatever seems fun on a match by match basis. Originally, I ordered a Burris MTAC 1.5-6x as my main optic with an offset mount Burris FastFire III. However, OpticsPlanet.com does a miserable job of telling you what is in stock well after you place the order. I'm disappointed enough that I have about 36 hours from now to cancel that part of my order before they might ship the two Burris products. So, that got me thinking. I might as well put this out there to others for their more experienced opinions and recommendations. I'm very likely cancelling my OpticsPlanet order as punishment for them for poor business practices. Smaller shops can track online inventory better than OpticsPlanet, which should shame them, but apparently doesn't. Main scopes I have considered recently, in no particular order: Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6.5x Burris Fullfield E1 2-7x (1" tube) Burris MTAC 1.5-6x Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x Vortex Diamondback 2-7x Leupold VX-R 2-7x Leupold VX-3 2.5-8x IOR Valdada 1.5-8 Realistically, the MTAC 1.5-6, Viper PST 2.5-10, and the Bushnell 1-6.5 are the three leaders. I mentioned the others so you can get a better sense for the options I had considered to get to this point. I worry about the 10x on the high end of the PST. Seems like it might be "too much" for most 3-gun applications. The MTAC specs show a fairly narrow FOV, which is a concern. The Bushnell seems fabulous, but you pay for it. And, I've got the 1x range covered with the red dot. However, the Bushnell would be a great optic for Heavy Metal Optics rules. Your thoughts? Should I consider other optical options? For the offset red dot, does anyone have comparisons of the new FastFire III to the Leupold DeltaPoint series? FastFire III has battery access without removing the dot and is less expensive. But I'm willing to pay extra for quality if the DeltaPoint is the "better" choice. What bipod recommendations do you all have? I've never used one and am at a loss on how to start. Seems like Harris in the 9-13" range has been the general recommendation? Thanks in advance. I'm shooting Open primarily because of how my eyes work in certain circumstances.....and I hate loading the shotgun too much. That part isn't negotiable. Open it will be!

What reason did they give to not apply the firearm warranty to the barrel damage? By the way, I'm VERY pleased nobody was injured. I hope you and your son enjoyed the match.

Me too. ALthough I'll be selling my Walther PPS 9mm to fund the M&P Shield in .40. I saw a listing on gunbroker, so they must exist in the wild. I need to talk to my local shop.

One thing I have noticed in discussions I have read is that the Vortex illumination is not as bright as the Burris (either model). However, advice has been not to make that the make-or-break decider either. I was hoping my MTAC 1.5-6x would get here this week, but my reseller isn't being too swift in order fulfillment, so far.

I'm looking around for some support of my statement. Nothing conclusive yet. Of course, I've only been searching about 5 minutes..............

My understanding is that the brightness on the MTAC line is higher than the TAC30. I believe that was one of the improvements.

I may be a new 3-gun shooter, but I've been an engineer for 20 years (oh man I feel old now). Let me show some calculations on the bullet drops. I will use this URL for the ugly computations that integrate the effects of drag over time: http://www.jbmballis...jbmtraj-5.1.cgi For the tool's output, we see that the time from leaving the muzzle to arriving at 400 yards down range is 0.567 seconds. That is using a Hornady 55gr FMJ leaving the muzzle at 2900 ft/sec. Cool, now we can totally ignore the other motion of the bullet and only consider its drop. The distance an object travels falling without any drag or other retarding force (we ignore that for this simple estimate) would be (1/2)*(acceleration due to gravity)*(falling time )^2. You might recognize that from high school physics as 1/2*a*t^2 or 1/2*g*t^2. This assumes no initial downward velocity. Acceleration due to gravity at sea level is about 32.2 ft/sec^2. So, we substitute and get: (1/2)*(32.2ft/sec^2)*(0.567sec)^2) = 0.5 * 32.2 ft/sec^2 * 0.321 sec^2 = 5.17 ft = 5.17ft * 12in/ft = 62 inches Now, since the bullet is not traveling perfectly parallel to the local horizon at firing it goes up at first. In other words, it's initial velocity has some vertical component in the positive (up) direction that has to be overcome by the downward gravity falling component. Bullet paths are actually flat arcs that eventually drop in on the target at long range. We aren't firing lasers here (darn it). Also, we did ignore drag as it falls, so that would come into play in the real world. Anyway, you can see that we get into the same order of magnitude ignoring these more effects of the bullet's initial flight direction. A less mathematical way to convince yourself is this. Drop a pebble from about 3 or 4 feet up and see how long it takes to fall. You'll see the falling time is on the same magnitude as the calculated bullet flight times out to 400 and 500 yards. I hope this helps you feel more comfortable about the physical principles involved with long range rifle shots. Now if only all this would help me actually hit something that far out!!!