bunsen27

Pictures are showing up now, must have been my FireFox settings at home. Thanks for the links and info. n00b question: can you just thread a comp directly onto a M1A barrel? I'm setting up a Springer M1A in a DMR style configuraion and technically don't need the irons, although in the long term it would be prudent to have them. Working within a tight budget at the moment.

I think the image hosting server is down because I don't see any images, but I will check out Smith Enterprises for the part. Thanks for the info! I think I found it: I'm hoping they sell the one piece separately. edite to add picture

Forgive my limited imaginative abilities, but I just can't seem to picture exactly how you have a SJC Titan and a traditional front sight on an M1A. Do you happen to have a picture handy, thanks.

Handloads and I use Nosler instead of SMK. Nosler's are about 2/3 the price of SMK and my JP-15 cannot tell the difference between them. A lot of folks use Varget. When I was working up my load I was only able to get W748 in sufficient quantity for 1000 rounds (very limited reloading window) so I went with it. I may go back and work up a Varget load and possibly even a 77gr load now that I have some time this "off season".

Thank you very much for the information! I was hoping to catch up with you guys at FB3G and ask about them, but our squads were never both off a stage at the same time.

I should have been more clear. I am not going to do major minor. So with tactical rules it would be USPSA rules except no major minor in tactical. Your right a Glock 17 is not a game gun. I just wanted to have a way to level the playing field for new shooters who had a mix of guns from single stack 45's to Glock 17's. Thanks for your input. The major minor thing was a pain in the but at the last match I ran. As for the 10 round mags they can download their high caps, I won't require them to have actual 10 round mags. Maybe I should ditch the 10 round idea. Not sure yet.Basically I was trying to wrap USPSA production, limited 10, IDPA, SSP, ESP into one catagory. Pat I agree with Kelly that the 10+1 rule for pistol would be more of a hinderance than a help for most shooters. I shoot Production in USPSA and start with 4 mags on the belt and one in the gun (51 rounds). The average shooter is likely to only have 2-3 mags unless they already shoot Production. If you have a stage with a high pistol round count and some challenging targets some shooters might run completely out, which is no fun (I know from experience ). Top the mags off, just no "gamer" guns. Good Luck and let us know how things work out.

Add me to the list of two ammo types of shooters. 55 FMJ's for 0-100yds and 69gr HPBT for 100+yds. For me an additional benefit, other than lower cost, is that my 55's are POA=POI to +1.75in from 5-100yds so I don't have to do hold overs. Just take dead aim or use a 6 o'clock hold (IMO especially usefull for head shots) and I'm good to roll.

I can tell you who finished 138th (me) and 137th (Denise Johnson). I'd like to thank all of the AMU for putting on an outstanding match and event! I hope to make it back next year and learn from the mistakes I made this year. It was a very enlightening experience on what a major 3gun match requires you to have in your skillset. I'd also like to thank all the competitors for being the down to Earth and friendly people that are a hallmark of the shooting sports. Especially my squad #2 who were a very laid back and friendly group of guys to shoot with: Thanks to Andy Horner for being the cameraman for our squad photo and the US Army for donating an additional smoke grenade for the "ambiance". Additional images (higher resolution) will be uploaded to my 2010 FB3G album once I get home and have access to a good internet connection instead of this Hotels flakey wireless. Stage 1 Panoramic

Yep, that is what I found today as well. For those of you shooting, the sound quality is pretty good, so yes we can hear you... I shoot 5,6,7, & 8 tomorrow so I'll look for the cameras. This is my first major 3gun match and it has been quite an interesting experience thus far. I have definitely found some areas in my skillset that need some attention in the off-season. Having grown up North of the Mason-Dixon line I felt a little odd packing the ski parka, toboggan, and gloves for a "just in case" scenario....I think I was the warmest person at the shooter brief this morning. Stage 9 I'll shoot some more pictures tomorrow and try to upload them later in the evening.

Get off your high horse and untwist your knickers. It was just an observation, not an insult. People get way too sensitive about this match.

Like Ken said, it was a preproduction unit. If you check the website AR15Targets you will see that they are discounted very heavily if you order between now and December 15th (I think). They worked fine for 223 and 308 and I can only imagine that they would work perfectly for slugs although we didn't shoot them with slugs (when the electronic plate came dislodged as Ken mentioned, we tested it by throwing large rocks at it...) They need to receive a solid hit so debris getting bounced up was not an issue. I believe MGM has a similar system about ready to come online as well: MGM Acquires Flash Targets

Yep apparently somebody wanted us to burn up all of our beer money on one stage. That stage should be sponosred by Remington Slugger's or Fiocchi Aero's. Could this possibly be the most expensive (ammo cost per stage) for a shooter at a major 3gun match (excluding Iron Man). I'm at $20-$22 for the slugs plus pistol ammo cost? I remember seeing the original round count of 26 slugs and thinking to myself: "wow there is going to be a lot of mid to long range slug shots, glad I pratice frequently at 50 and 100yds." A little disappointed to see 22 of them in a CQB hose fest. Lastly, do you really every need to shoot somebody twice with slugs in a CQB situation? I need to double check the scoring method used I'm guessing it is not 1A hit only required to neutralize target? It's not going to make my file for Chapter 11, but it is a waste of perfectly good beer money.

While we are discussing stages am I reading the description for Stage 3 correctly? 22 slugs? 2 slugs required per T1-T11?

Excellent advice! Two other things to consider: 1. if you have lots of handguns consider handgun hangers or a door panel pistol kit 2. even if you don't have many long guns the multiple row style holder IMO is much more accomidating than the U-style holder, or consider something like the Cannon trurack system

A few pieces of information will help people provide accurate suggestions/advice: 1. wood or synthetic stock? 2. how old is your 870? I know the newer 870 synthetics come with the Supercell pads. I'm not sure about the older synthetics stock models. All wood stocks I believe need to have the recoil pad fitted. Midway and Brownells have several options available.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=853005 Ironically my competition master load carrier decided to malfunction this evening so I decided to install an EZ Loader I had on hand. I used the original (small button) carrier (although I do think it will work with a competition master carrier as well). A 1/4in wide flat file, 1/16in punch, 1/16in drill bit, and patience are necessities to properly fit the EZ Loader. It is definitely NOT a drop in part. Most of the filing will be done on the carrier. The instructions will show you what areas typically need to be filed down, although mine required additional filing on the rear portion of the button area just to get the hooks to clear enough to line the holes up. One word of advice, when disassembling and fitting the EZ Loader is to work in a large box laid on it's side. The 1100 trigger group has two spring loaded pieces that have to be depressed simultaneously and one will invariably "slip" from your grasp and shoot across the room (ask me how I know)! Also re-install the flat spring AFTER you have the EZ Loader and carrier pinned together. Trying to line all those up with spring tension added is just a recipe for frustration. The spring will go back in rather easily once it's all pinned together. Allow 2-3 hours for installation and tuning. I found that once I had it installed and tuned I had to go back and cut about 3/16in off of each fork to avoid getting my thumb pinched. A Dremel with a cutting wheel and sanding disk made short work of this modification. I'll take some photos tomorrow and post them up after I get back from the range to function check it. So far though I'm quite pleased wit how much easier it is to load my 1100 now.

I already have the equipment (it's my Zombie Apocalypse kit ) and would be happy to shoot that division or let a new shooter use my gear if they didn't have the funds for equipment. Hell I may just run it in my local matches Tac Iron division next year just for funzzies to see how I fair. We now have yellow backers for all the long range steel so now I can actually sort of see the targets with irons!

First welcome! If money is a little tight and you want to get the most "bang for your buck" you might want to see when clubs are holding their classifier match. I know Sir Walter traditionally does one in March, I'm sure other clubs do something similar. If you are looking for places to shoot be sure to check out: http://www.ncsection.org/

I posted this back on page 19 and I can't believe no-one has posted a reply. Last year I posted Chef Lee's. OK, not everybody likes Chinese but, Meat and Potatos/Real Food and fun to boot at a great price? What's up? Where do you guys go to eat at major matches anyway? Thanks for the reminder. This is very near my hotel so I will definitely check it out!

Respectfully, one of your top instructors SHOULD be able to win with just about ANY configuration of equipment. Their exist the fallacy that equipment makes great shooters what they are; at that skill level it ultimately boils down to the squirrel pulling the trigger not the equipment they are using. Now if he had done it using a pump, that would have actually been something impressive to talk about. That would have been an actual equipment handicap. I'd also double check your math. It's appears a bit off: Glock = $550-350, Bushmaster A2 = $1000-800, Benelli = $$$-$$$$ That equipment might have cost $1500 back in the '90s, but not today. Try not to take this personally. You're not the first person I've seen post or spoken with that has displayed the attitude of "this is the way it is, nutt up or don't play our game". I'm not an advocate for the dumbing down or everyone gets a trophy mentality, so little Johnny or Suzy doesn't get their feeling hurt. If this sport truly wants to see some growth and participation levels, on par with the single gun sports, it needs to do a better job of being new shooter friendly and more economically feasible for the average person. Which is what this theoretical discussion of a Production division is about. Thanks for being part of that.

I run a JP15 with the low mass system and compensator and wouldn't change it out for anything else! The recoil impulse truely is just like a .22LR I have had no reliability issues with it through 2k-3k rounds of ammo from various companies. As for "tuning" the gas port I started with it completely closed an kept opening it until the rifle would cycle with my slowest ammo. Then I opened it up an additional 1/2 turn just to make sure it functioned reliably under all conditions.

I added some extra pouches to mines as well - a 9 Magazine Pouch, a water bottle holder and a dump pouch...comes in handy for reorganizing ammo between stages: Only downside I'm finding with this bag is that with all the room, its tempting to put everything in there including the kitchen sink....it can get real heavy and/or unbalanced, so a bit of packing forethought is required!! That looks great! Where did you get those additional pouches at? I may need to add a few more to mine. I agree that you can easily overload the case beyond the point of being able to carry it.

The current tac iron / tac optic is already an economical starting point. Compete with what you have, The ego of a new shooter is going to get squashed either way if thats what they set themselves up for. I shot my very first match at the DPMS tri-gun and came back for more. BECAUSE ITS FUN. I know cops that I work with that could not take the ego hit from a USPSA match when they got beat by an "old fat guy with suspenders". They never came back. You can't please everyone. Make it fun and shooters will show up. Beating a dead dead dead horse but, Attract TI shooters with long range targets that can be SEEN. Jay I do agree that many new shooters cannot take the ego hit of being bested by the rotund older gentleman in suspenders. It is also true if you make it fun then shooters will show. However make it more affordable and more shooters will show up more often. I respectfully disagree that TO & TI are economical enough for new shooters. As for "compete with what you have" did you start out with a JP-CTR02 and Benelli M1? If not did you feel you needed to "upgrade" to those platforms to "compete" rather than just participate? I do not disagree that they are both EXCELLENT tools to play this game with, but they certainly are not the cheapest. As for rifle steel colors, backers, ect that debate is ongoing here in case you hadn't seen it yet.

I went the slightly different route of Glock to Sig to M&P. The Glock just did not fit my hands, and even with trigger work I couldn't shoot is accurately as my Sig. The Sig had the added bonus of a reversible mag release but the disadvantage of a DA first trigger pull. The M&P to me has all the the advantages of the Sig and Glock platform with none of the disadvantages. YMMV

Thanks for putting this out there! I was having a similar thought based on the discussion from previous threads, other discussion with members here, and shooters at the range. As a first year shooter in USPSA Production and 3gun I personally think this is an idea with a lot of potential to bring new shooters into the sport. As you mentioned this should be started at the local club level to see if it gains a following. I view a Production division as a gateway division into 3gun analogous to it's role in USPSA. The fundemental reasoning would be to keep the eqipment cost to a minimum and utilize common equipment most people would already own or can easily afford. If at all possible an arms/equipment race type scenario should be avoided. Keep everything basic and near stock configurations. The mythical Tactical Redneck or guy who wants to get some hands on time with his home defense guns come to mind as potential candidates for this division. USPSA has done a pretty good job refining what can and cannot play in the Production pistol division, so I see no reason to try and reinvent the wheel there. Although I would advocate allowing shooters to top off their magazines, and possibly the use of 140mm extensions. Limiting the mags to only 10 rounds just doesn't work for 3gun. In USPSA CoF design I believe is limited to a maximum of four paper targets ( 8 steel) per array, so a 10round mag works there. CoF for 3gun does not have that limitation (non-USPSA matches), so 10 round mags wouldn't work well. As for the SS if you want to play with it in this division sure you can use 10 round mags, but don't expect anybody else not shooting a SS to download their mags to 10 rounds. For the shotgun I agree that the pump needs a place to play other than just HM. I'd wager a guess that more folks own a pump for home defense and hunting than an autoloader, and they are definitely lower cost than most autoloaders that are used in TO/TI (the new Mossberg 930 may change that though). 7+1 or 8+1 would be practical since many home defense guns already have extended tubes, and a tube can be added to a hunting shotgun for ~$50. The rifle is where it can get a little tricky. At a National level match most TI shooters would not be at a disadvantage against a 1x optic shooter. At your local level match the iron shooters most likely would "feel" that they were at a disadvantage. My local matches just started up a TN (Tactical Non-magnified) division for 1x optics. They also still run a TI division. Personally I have no issues running irons against a 1x, but that's just me. 30 round mags to me is a straight forward "yes", but do allow coupled mags. The next debate is over compensated versus non-compensated barrels. I believe your average AR15 owner is sporting a non-comped barrel so I'd lean that direction. Essentialy this Production Division could be an excellent entry point into the sport of 3gun for a lot of people. It would provide a low economic barrier of entry, which I feel is the biggest hurdle most people face when looking into the sport. Followed closely by the fear of their ego taking a little bit of a whooping. I don't advocate messing with any of the existing Divisions as they presently are configured. For those concerned about "slicing the pie" too many ways I see your concern, but recall that one of the concepts of this division is to attract new shooters to the sport, not to draw existing shooter out of their current divisions. Although I'm sure some might give it a try (I most certainly would) the influx of new shooters should offset that attrition. This is definitely going to be more of a "bottom up" rather than a "top down" type of thing. I've already seen some of this with my local matches going to the TN concept. The Oct match had 63 shooters: 11 in TI and 51 in TO (1 guy shot Open). The Nov match had 48 shooters: 30 TO, 4 TI, and 13 TN. Of the 13 in TN only 4 came from TO and zero came from TI of previous matches. I hate to quote cheesey movies, but "if you build it...." you might just be surprised who all shows up to shoot that hasn't before due to word of mouth, 3gun Nation, not having to take a 2nd mortgage for equipment, ect.