kurtm

Philosophical question. Makes us examine the root of our rules and see if they still make sense or not. A great example of a philosophical debate that did end up in a change was allowing red dot sights into limited. Mike Pinto and I asked the question of should they be allowed. Everyone responded with a resounding NO.....because anything with glass is an optic! After seeing that this was a case of "well that's the way it always has been, we decided to do it at our club matches anyway, and see. Two short years latter U.S.P.S.A. contacted us to ask how it was going. Since we kept the data on how much our limited division grew, and how many new shooters it attracted, they made the change as well....and then the rest of the 3-gun world followed suit. Wanna know about a philosophical debate about target size.....Trapr and I proposed the 4 M O.A. idea, and low and behold it caught on, just because of a debate. Before everything was a 10" plate no matter how far away....because that was what always had been done. I am not wedded to this particular debate per see, but I was asked by several new shooters at our local club after two of them D.Q.ed at their very first match 3/4 of the way through. Their crime?? Moving their spare EMPTY HOLSTERED pistol off of the top of their score cards in the bag when asked for them from the R.O. . Handling a pistol outside of the safety area! Funny part the R.O. stood there and watched them dig in the bag for the score sheets and never said a word untill...your D.Q.ed. They both just wanted to know how they did on what they shot. Both L.E. and both won't be back. So here in lies the question.

I was vague on what keeping your points would mean on purpose to see where the debate would go. No I don't feel that if you D.Q. you get to win the match, I just feel that you shouldn't become invisible! I agree Denise, that people still break the law and it is retroactive......but a conviction doesn't erase the person's history from the world. I.E. there are several record holders in sports that committed felonies, and yet if you look up in the record book they are still listed.

No, not trolling, using this to prove the point that no matter how much safety we "codify" no matter how much we like to say this rule keeps us safe, or this person keeps us safe, we can't react to a safety infraction UNTILL AFTER it happens! Up untill this happens the shooter was deemed to be "safe" only on the merit of not violating the rules.

And as an R.O. why didn't you stop them from doing something unsafe? Isn't it an R.O.'s job to maintain and enforce safety on the stage? Letting someone launch a round over the berm doesn't seem to be keeping anyone safe.

Yes!!! Your score is your score but doesn't count towards match placement due to the D.Q.

I don't recall ever saying you would walk the prize table after a D.Q. maybe that is what you all assumed, but I have purposefully not made any sort of connection to that.

Ihavegas, where has anyone said "water down" the safety rules? As the "rules" stand right now we can't D.Q. untill AFTER the infraction has incurred. So, in your beautiful mown field getting shot in the ass is just as likely with erasing scores, or keeping scores. There is no change in that either way. Chuck, all good points to ponder.

Hi Larry!!!!!

bimmer1980, I agree the D.Q. should and could be a teaching moment. That still doesn't answer why you don't get credit for what you did right......at least in my mind.

Ahhhhhh.....think of a match as the gorge. Think of winning as the 100%. You can't win without all stages being complete, but if we follow your analogy, which I like by the way, and take a picture of the "non complete" bridge, we can still see that most of the bridge does indeed exist. A missing section does not make the rest of the bridge disappear. Even when the wind made the Tacoma Straights bridge "not complete" you could still see that a bridge had been there!

I agree with MikeBurges who posted "My thought is the match DQ is a huge penalty for the sole purpose of making shooters consider safety above all else, for the duration of the match". But not the part where the shooter would be more careless as the match progressed if the points counted. Winning is usually decided by 10 -20 points, and no one can afford to just drop 100 points by being more careless as the match continues. I also agree with Joe4d, falling is no excuse, but once again the falling and "risking lives" has already happened before anything can be done about it, points or not. What one does or does not do with the points earned isn't really material to the question of why they are erased. As for hero or zero, this is racing no matter how you look at it, and you can't D.Q. just for the way you interpret their intent or actions, until a rule is broken, and then the action is long gone before the STOP can be issued. (and yeah I don't really care for the hero or zero mentality either, but it can't really be stopped until a violation occurres)

MemphisMechanic, do you not understand that this is a philosophical thought provoking thread? Do you not understand that there are other types of scoring systems? Do you not understand that this is about 3-gun action shooting and not just about I.P.S.C./U.S.P.S.A rules? Do you not realize that there are matches that just issue stage D.Q.s for many of the infractions we are talking about? You do understand that in these types of matches you "were there" that day, just not for the one stage? Do you not understand that a debate doesn't have to be adversarial and use phrases such as " hurt feelings" and "suck it up"? To answer your question, yes I am vaguely aware of how hit factor scoring works. I was told once, maybe, long ago that a D.Q. disqualifies you from the entire match, but the underlying question still remains....WHY? We have always done it that way, isn't really an answer, i.e. why don't we put a steam engine in a ship?....Because we have always used sails! It makes us safer to erase all scores ...... doesn't answer how it makes us safer when all safety violations which cause a D.Q. are only addressed AFTER the safety violation happened. I contend that leaving the scores earned, as safely shot, is not unfair to anyone. I contend that by NOT leaving that stage win by the D.Q.ed shooter in the scores, you are artificially buoying up the scores of the shooters who were not the best on that stage ....... More like outcome based shooting. Disclaimer: Yes I am aware that this IS NOT how it has been done for a long time. Yes I am aware this won't change anything, but sometimes a fella just has to ask why don't we put steam engines in ships.

How does the D.Q.ed shooters scores affect other shooters scores. How is it any different than when a shooter has to leave a match early, due to family issue or injury? Say I have shot 9 of 12 stages and pop a ligament and can't shoot the last 3, are all my scores erased, because it could affect other shooters scores? Doesn't practiscore account for that or does it completely mess up the whole program? No it doesn't How is this any less safe? You broke the rule and you are sent home, so to speak, either way you no longer shoot. Please explain how not counting the score as it stands makes us safer. After all an R.O. can't stop you from doing whatever it was that you did to D.Q.. An R.O. yelling STOP doesn't stop the bullet you just launched over the berm, and the STOP doesn't come before the gun is dropped, so how does this make us safer, or conversely, how does counting the score make us completely unsafe? Are D.Q.es actually a punishment function? Do we D.Q. people so they can earn some public humility? I think I see another thread developing from this. I think saying "since the inception of action shooting" is a bit too broad of a statement, since the inception of I P.S.C. Perhaps, but not all action shooting entities had a big rule book associated with it. Not saying right or wrong, but that is a bit too broad of a statement.

Bishop414. Yes matches that stage D.Q. you get no points for that stage, but continue on. I do believe that most these matches still have a "match D.Q." area as well, but a stage D Q. Allows the shooter to continue on and utilize whatever points they accumulated at the end. McFoto, you are not "getting points" past your D.Q. all other stages AFTER your D.Q. would be zero. So your getting what you earned and not on thing more. I do see what you are saying, but it isn't a participation trophy, you only get what you earned. Let say you are paid by the hour, and half way through the day you are dicking around on break and hurt your leg and can't work the rest of the day. Do we forfit the money we earned for those 4 hours? Or do we get what we earned and nothing more???

So, if a stair gives way and causes a competitor to fall and in so doing breaks the 180, he should have considered that and erored towards safety??? If a uneven fault line trips a competitor, he should have been "more safe"??? I'm not sure I see the logic in that, but ok.

Ok, it has been fairly dead in here for a while so lets get this going. I'd like to hear from match directors, but anyone's opinion is more than welcome!! Why does a D.Q. cause all of your match results to be "erased"? Why doesn't one get credit for the stages completed up to the point they D.Q.? Yes I know that they have done something deemed "unsafe", and need to stop shooting for the day to ponder on what they did, but they had been deemed to be safe on all stages leading up to the D.Q. Why don't they get the credit for the stages completed safely and successfully? There are all sorts of ways people D.Q.. Break the 180, fire a shot while reloading, launch one out of the berm, drop a loaded gun, drop an unloaded gun in some cases, un-bag in an inappropriate area....etc. BUT there are plenty of other ways which aren't really too much of the shooters fault. Being tripped by uneven fault lines, being tripped by a rope fault line, being tripped by a big rock in the middle of a stage that the staff knew was a trip hazard and even painted the rock orange and ending up breaking the 180 or dropping a gun, holster being ripped off belt by a piece of loose trim on a prop car, pistol pulled out of holster by a parachute harness, rifle sling getting caught on a jagged wall prop, dump barrel falls over dropping shotgun onto ground, stairway breaks causing a fall and 180 violation......and I could go on after these many years, but I think you get the idea. Many of these D.Q.s are really the result of bad stage design, bad prop maintenance, but it does result in all the shooters scores to be erased from the results. WHY?? In many forms of racing, you get the credit for the amount you complete. There have been several F1 races over the years that 3rd place was decided by the number of laps completed....and yet that car never went the entire 500 miles, due to the field being eliminated by crashes, debris on the track etc. In NASCAR, on a race where a 20 car pile up happens, they still figure out the points awarded all the way down to last place, even though at least 20 of the field didn't complete the race. Why don't we get the same credit applied? I can see the results now with the shooters name on all stages safely completed, a D.Q. on the stage not completed "safely" and then a D.N.F on the stages not completed due to the D.Q. Thoughts???

300 for iron sights is mandatory, not just a good idea! 200 minimum for a scope. In general, the more sight to bore offset, the farther you should go.....and yes people can and do shoot groups at 300..... any of you steely eyed 3-gunners ever heard of Hi-Power or Service Rifle matches??

Right you are! I ment it wasn't an M2, but it is a Benelli M4...

Have someone checker the Nordic button and that would be darn close. I would think a 20 line per inch file would be about right. The shotgun pictured isn't a Benelli, and I have no idea who made that button .

Excess headspace will NOT cause a gun to "blow up". It can be real rough on the brass, and a potential eye injurer, although not on the AR platform. It can be hard on the brass, it can cause the primer to back out of the case, and it could cause firing pin erosion. But all that is real minor. Just put on good quality shooting glasses and blast one out, look at the case, and if it looks ok rinse and repeat 15-20,000 times!

Yes and no, it will give you a go, or no go indication by hand as the lugs are radial. It will either turn or not turn. The best way is bolt in carrier, but the bolt needs to be stripped of it's extractor AND ejector! Folks make WAY to big a thing.out of this. If it doesn't drop primers, and or it closes on factory ammo without sticking go shoot the sh#t out of it and have fun!

Does anyone make a 20" barrel anymore???

Funny all our local ranges have pleanty of room for trucks and cars. Some guys even use their 4 wheelers and tow a trailer. 3- 4 guys can easily work out of one truck / 4 wheeler trailer combo.

96 Dodge diesel 3/4 ton single cab truck.

Show off! I see there were 24 slots assigned anyone know if we have any standard shooters besides Me and Michael Rush?