kellyn

Let's be honest. The is NO reason to shoot a Blackout in any current 3 gun match. For .30-30 ballistics you get increased cost and increased recoil. And for all the Internet talk of the Blackout as some sort of long range cartridge, can anyone remember the discussions of how the .30-30 was some sort of great long range cartridge? I'm sure the Blackout is great for taking out sentries or shooting hogs at 100 meters or less in the Texas brush but for 3 gun? Please.

Generally no, unless the shooting conditions were dark. I never felt the need for illumination on a Pris during a typical 3 gun match.

If you want a 200 yard zero, go shoot your gun at 200 yards. The "50/200" zero is not really accurate. Is that with a 20 inch barrel and 50 grainer going at 3200 fps? Or is it with a 14.5 inch barrel and 75/77 grain bullets going 2500 fps? The only way to KNOW where your gun/load/optic combo shoots at 200 or 300 or ...., it to shoot it at those distances.

3 gun is about the hardest sport there is on scopes and mounts. Scopes often have to travel thousands of miles to a three gun match where they get tossed into barrels and as Sterling well notes get cranked up and down the power range. Most shooters display little gentleness when doing so which is really hard on scopes. My point about mil spec is that The Leupold Mark 6 and 8 lines are developed for military use and are tough which is a desirable feature. They are being used by the military but does not necessarily make them good 3 gun scopes. They shot bin Laden which a HK 416, something which you would not catch me 3 gunning with. The Mk 6 is a scope designed for military use and happens to be a great 3 gun scope. The Swaro was designed for hunting and happens to be a great 3 gun scope. The Vortex was designed to be a 3 gun scopeand guess what it is a great 3 gun scope.

Horner is beating everyone currently with a Leupold Mk6 1-6X and before that he was beating everyone with a Swaro 1-6X, and before that a S&B 1-4X. Before that a Leupold 1.5-5X. Somehow I don't think it was the scope. Once again, any of these scopes is capable of winning any 3 gun match.

No offense against the Leupold as they make a good product but who the heck cares if its mill spec or not. Also I am not aware of any military units using a 1-6 Leupold. Could be wrong I guess. Vortex also has a lifetime no BS warranty.Pat You're right Pat, you're not aware of any military units using the Leupold 1-6X.

True but I would bet a lot of shooters have an 870 or Mossberg 500 kicking around in their gun safe. Pat True +1 BUT I think shotgun scares off the new shooter more than any other gun. If they have mil experience, they have some T & E with the rifle. If they have LEO experience, they have some T&E with the pistol (maybe some minimal with the shotgun). They probably have a few spare mags and mag pouches for their AR and pistol. What the potential new practical shooter doesn't have is any real T&E with shotgun or the gear. Another thing they don't have is the loading skill set which is of uber importance in 3 gun. They don't have a TWinS kit laying around. There is a 2 Gun match in AZ and it get a WHOLE seperate group than the 3 gun matches do. I'm glad they have a place ot shoot. It is also a lot easier to show up at a match with an M4-ish AR with an Aimpoint and be competitive than it is with your standard "tactical" 870.

I can't predict the future of 2 gun or comment on the USCA Nationals but I can say this, a LOT more people have an M4-ish AR15 and a Glock 19 than have an M4-ish AR15, Glock 19 and a Benelli M2/Versamax/Beretta1301.

Any one of these scopes is capable of winning any 3 gun match. The Swaro might be the most popular. The Vortex, the best value. The Leupold is the only true mil spec scope and has a great warranty. Pick one, zero it, practice, check your zero. Win matches.

I'd be careful about using a photo of Jerry in a book as your source material. I've shot with Jerry quite a bit and can't recall him not having an optic that was 1X on the bottom end. But obviously he did so at least one time. There are some matches where I would consider running a scope with higher power in open (Rocky Mountain maybe, perhaps that is where Jerry was for the photo) but in general I would want to have an optic with 1 or 1.5X on the low end even in open. But I'm sure the 2-8X would be adequate if not ideal. The problem with 2X is not man sized targets at 25, it is running through a house with a host of targets at 1-15. Any sort of magnification makes that tougher, particularly when the shooter is moving. Can it be done. Sure, we did it plenty when the ACOG was king of the mountain but I'll take my Leupold Mk 6 1-6X, thank you very much. I almost shot a 4.5-14X at Rocky Mtn this year for those long range targets but went with a 1-6X and did just fine.

Total thread drift. I've shot the AMU uber 3 Gun Nation/Crimosn Trace winning SBR. I don't think it has any advantage over your standard 3 gun rifle. But it is a nice rifle (although it's really heavy for how small it is).

I did not realize that accuracy and velocity were mutually exclusive. I've found that hotter loads tend to be more accurate in .223. I like hotter loads as they shoot flatter (more important in Tac Iron division), have more down range energy and make the comp work better.

I can't wait to see you leave your JP in the safe and shoot that Tavor at a major match! Of course, you might be crazy enough to try. I think the FAL is a more competitive Heavy Metal gun than the Tavor is a Tac Scope gun. With either one, you will have to learn to manage the less than spectacular trigger.

Horse beat to death! It really will make little to no difference in your overall score. I run an 18 because I like the rifle length gas system, rifle length handguard and the balance of a longer barrel. Plus I get all warm and fuzzy thinking about the extra velocity I get over a 16. You will do just fine with your 16. Just make sure it has a GOOD ZERO!!

Excellent post. I think that 3 Gun Nation is good for gun ownership, the shooting sports and for 3 gun. BUT as you said, you are new to the sport which has a fairly lengthy and diverse history. Much of the "nitpicking" and "panties in a bunch" has to do with real philosophical differences about how 3 gun matches should be conducted. Target choice is an excellent example. I completely understand why 3 Gun Nation choose to use the much-maligned "pizza box" target. There are excellent arguments for doing so (as with the IPSC Classic target). That being said, I prefer matches that don't use such targets. Practical shooting will never be "politically correct" and I think efforts to make it more so are ultimately self-defeating. But I recognize that the use of IDPA/Metric IPSC target or God forbid the VTAC target will likely preclude the sport from wider TV coverage. Much of the angst expressed in this thread has to do with 1) the unmooring of 3 gun from its (as Richard Bhella has so aptly put it) "martial roots" and 2) the rise of a new breed of "pro" shooter. I will leave 2) alone except to say that increased TV coverage and pay outs does have an impact on how many people behave. It's simply the nature of the beast. As for 1), 3 Gun Nation and its ilk leads us down the road to European style IPSC, a kinder gentler form of practical shooting. I, for one, like European style IPSC, having shot it several times. I, for one, also much prefer "Merica!" style outlaw 3 gun. 3 Gun is certainly not "combat training" or "paramilitary training" but many us keep one foot tangled back in those "martial roots." So when 3 Gun Nation tries to adopt the outlaw mantle, it's naturally going to get some blowback. "Outlaw" was a moniker for non-USPSA 3 gun. It has also come to symbolize a sort of "bad boy" status, something which 3 Gun Nation is both trying to adopt and tame. Again, this causes blowback.

I want all my competitors to shoot the Tavor.

We don't have to be done but let's watch the personal fouls. My 2 cents is that I wish 3 Gun Nation all the best of luck. I do, however, get a chuckle when a match declares itself "outlaw" and then uses pizza boxes for targets.

In the past, I've relied on a medium contour barreled JP. This year, I primarily shot a light contoured JP and really liked it. Do I shoot it any better than the medium contour? Nope. Faster transitions on close range targets? Nope. Better match results? Nope. I think heavy or light is the least of your concerns although the trend among younger shooters seems to be headed towards lighter and shorter. Check out a bunch of different guns, pick one, zero it and "prepare for glory."

Are we done??

By popular demand, post em if you've got em. Please only post major and regional matches, not your local 3 gun match. I don't care how cool it is.

Saw one today, the Prismatic doesn't have to worry.

You know the best accessory? A good zero. WAY more important than this trigger or that, this stock or that, this scope or that. The important questions are stuff like this: can you hit an A zone consistently offhand at 100? Reverse kneeling at 200? Prone at 300? Can you run thru a shoot house quickly and efficiently? Can you shoot support side? Can you manage a sling? do you know where to hold on a plate at 150? Can you remember offset on close range targets? That being said, 2.5-10X scope is a bit much or 3 gun. If you like the Votex, buy one. Zero it. Check zero again. Practice. Then practice some more.

Yes

I agree on the holster observation, it is needed. I have a different view of the use of lasers. I'm a big fan on the rifle and shotgun. Not so much on the pistol but I was using a dot, not iron sights. I think that if you're going to use a laser on the pistol, you had better practice with it. I saw some very good pistol shooters struggle with using the laser. I think it is because the laser shows more muzzle movement which increases the tendency to snatch the trigger. This is not to say that lasers are bad. If I had not had a dot, I would have put a bunch of time in with my laser. But for me at least, the laser and dot was disconcerting as you usually see 2 dots in the optic as the laser and dot are only zeroed together at 1 distance. But way more important than that is to make sure that ALL of your lights are secured on ALL of your weapons!!! That bit me last year!

There is no answer to this question given the plentiful bounty of major 3 gun matches out there now. In the old days, there was SOF. Then there was SOF, Supersitition and USPSA Nationals. Now who can say? Who could even shoot all of the major 3 gun matches enough to have a valid opinion?? Not even the AMU gets to hit them all. People are only stating what their personal favorite is. I don't think any one match has a claim to the throne. I think Ft. Benning was the last match that really had a chance to be the ONE and that was b/c of the setting and the backing from the Army. I think it depends on what you like? Low down, dirty, fast and furious? Go to Superstition Mtn, FNH, CMMG, ProAm or 3 Gun Nation. Cruel and unusual? Blue Ridge and Task Force Dagger. Technical shooting with big stages? Spartan Fallen Brethren or RM3G. Afraid of the dark? Don't go to Crimson Trace. Over the top? MGM.