Pandora's Box

[Randy Lee]

Here is what I've observed so far with a 627 retrofitted with a 327 fluted cylinder.

Using a BBD precision barrel with aluminum comp, my gun with scope weighed about 5.9 ounces more than the factory 327 5" WITHOUT a scope. I have since replaced the barrel with a hybrid ported 5.5" barrel as I really do not like comps on my revolvers.

Using 38 special loads with Federal primers, the trigger pull has weighed in at 2lbs 14.5 oz with 100% reliability thus far. When dry firing at speed, the lack of torque related upset to the sight picture is quite noticeable. Dot upset is almost imperceptible as the cylinder locks into position, even if you mash on the trigger as badly as I do. The lack of sight upset is also very apparent when shooting stages like Five to Go and Pendulum.

The project gun was originally used to prototype the sub 3lb trigger work and has morphed into a Steel Challenge race revolver due to the weight reduction of the Ti cylinder. The side benefit of the lighter cylinder shows up in a slightly faster draw.

Utilizing the Ti cylinder was the last part of the equation in breaking the 3.0 lb trigger pull barrier. In this case measured trigger pull saw a reduction of about 6oz. when compared to the steel cylinder in the same gun.

Wear tracks on the cylinder from the cylinder stop are minimal compared to a steel cylinder with equivalent or less rounds fired through it. They are nearly invisible in fact. No peening of the impact shoulder of the cyl. stop notch is visible.

I suspect that the MIM cylinder stop will wear out faster, but it is a much cheaper part to replace than a cylinder.

The reduced mass of the Ti cylinder also reduces wear and tear on the cylinder hand and the timing ratchets on the extractor star.

I have found that using short colt brass has caused me to bump up to 3-3.2lbs in pull weight and I'm still working to resolve this problem(Dave Hearth is making me some tighter toleranced moonclips).

This a lot of geek-speak which boils down to my desire to get Smith and Wesson to produce a sleek looking(sellable product for them) high performance race revolver(with 6.5 inch barrel among other niceties) designed for IPSC/USPSA competition. The longer sight radius and weight of the longer barrel are advantageous to those of us shooting 165+PF loads(and in the case of Cliff, Patrick, Jerry and Lisa- all Ecuador bound, the 170+PF loads). The Ti cylinder will reduce some of the overall weight of the gun as well as provide longevity. The new gun will also lend itself very well to having ultra light trigger work.

Hopefully, the marketing and engineering guys at Smith will listen. I believe they could sell enough of them to make it worth their while.

What do you all think?

Randy

[Airedale]

Randy,

Great post very interesting information.

Sub 3lb DA trigger pull? Wow!

Thanks,

Dave

[spook]

While we're drifting...

Randy, a firend of mine has visited the US and handled one of the guns you did the trigger work on. He was to say the least, very very impressed. How long will the trigger stay that way with daily dry fire? We're talking about a standard 625-3 here.

[Carmoney]

Randy, I have two areas of concern that I'll toss out here:

1. We have experienced some problems with the Ti cylinder in the 646, in terms of sticky extraction. The original "PC" run are almost useless, from the many reports I've heard, and the second run of non-PC guns, while much better, tend to be finicky about loads, particularly when running them at major power factor. It's no fun to shoot one of these guns when you know you might have to put a hole in the palm of your left hand to get the moonclip out.... Some of this seems connected to the type of moonclip used--I thought the solid clips would be the answer, in fact they made it worse--but many believe it's related to the cylinder itself. What are the 325 owners experiencing here? Will we have intermittent extraction problems? Has anyone definitively figured out why the 646 tends to have this problem?

2. Sub-3 pound DA pull....hmm. Randy, again only playing devil's advocate, OK? Where is the point of diminishing returns, for gosh sakes? There has got to be a point in seeking the holy grail of the ultra-light double-action that you start sacrificing trigger rebound. And a lively trigger return is real important for shooting IPSC. I did talk to one high-level revo shooter this summer who quietly admitted that he desecrated his Apex action job by putting a heavier rebound spring back in, said he tried it but it just felt too sluggish to him...

[10mmdave]

My plan is to make a 6" full lug barrel with 1" of the underlug removed at the muzzle end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HEY RANDY ! ! ! Get outta my brain

How's about doing this with a 6.5 inch 10mm barrel, but maybe 1.5 to 2 inches

of under lug removed ! ! ! And flute that blasted cylinder like it should be (sorry,

no Ti that I know of for 610's)

I have one for the "test bed" if needed.

OH ! OH ! ....and some side flats like the 627 PC barrels

[10mmdave]

And to go with Carmony's reply, do we really think S&W will make a gun as pain-

stakinly put together like Randy has done ??

It will be a revo with all the outside features (well maybe all) you've wanted with a

12-15 pound DA trigger pull (gritty as hell with blasting grit still inside the frame

under the side plate).

And for all this we'll get to pay $1100-$1300 probably for a gun we'll have to send

to Randy to get the trigger pull some folks want and spend that extra $$.

I feel bad about saying this about about or favorite revolver company, but this is

coming from a guy who sent a 610 back 4 times and it's still f--ked up, and had

to send a "bent barrel" 627 with the desirable 6.5 inch barrel back twice and they

f--ked up the side plate.

Arrrrgggggg ! ! ! ! I need to get back to work.

[R112mercer]

"It's no fun to shoot one of these guns when you know you might have to put a hole in the palm of your left hand to get the moonclip out...."

Listen rookie, some of us more experienced guys have a ball lock on our yoke, making the ejector rod lock superfluous. You take that sucker out and jam it in a bench grinder for a few seconds and clean it up with the wire wheel and you'll get rid of that nasty, jammin' your hand on a fruit-corer effect you get with a stock rod. Judging from your hammers you're no stranger to a bench grinder so's ya got's no excuse <G>...

[10mmdave]

What would be a good entry level gun, and what would be the best caliber.  I know my single action wouldn't work too well.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What Bubber said +4

The simplest, cheapest way to get into the game is with a used K or L frame and

shoot good quality 38 spcl ammo. get your self at least 8 Safariland speed loaders,

don't forget the holders, a used 002 Cup Challenge holster.

The problem with this....speed loaders are a tad slower to use (IMO), they fall to the ground and get grit inside them so take Bubbers suggest and get it moonclipped BUT ! ! figure that out before you buy the speed loader holders.

(moonclips from TK Custom and Brownells)

(My suggestion would be a 686 6 inch moonclipped with a pair of N frame grips

modified to fit the L frame, put an SDM fromt sight on it and a Millet rear, your

choice of blade style)

And also what Carmony said +1,

The .45 ACP revo with a min. 5inch brl, max. 6.5 inch barrel is THE gun to use for

Revo class, speed loads like nothing else, a bit more expensive than the K or L

frame guns but you will graduate to a 45 if you stay in the game. Plenty of loads

available but more expensive than 38 spcls.

The 610 is a great gun but you can't find them and the 45 guns speed load a tad

easier/quicker. (I own 3 610's)

(My suggestion, a Model 25 in 6.5 inch barrel like someone else said, great gun,

if not that then go with the 625 5inch which are more plentiful used and same no.

of holders and holster)

Okay, just my opinions which ain't worth squat, good luck and I'll see you on the range ! (I've heard that somewhere before )

[Carmoney]

some of us more experienced guys have a ball lock on our yoke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gosh Rob, I would think wearing a ball lock on your yoke would be even more painful than getting a hole in the palm....

[spook]

some of us more experienced guys have a ball lock on our yoke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gosh Rob, I would think wearing a ball lock on your yoke would be even more painful than getting a hole in the palm....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Randy Lee]

Wow,

I guess I opened a Pandora's box with this one...

Carmoney et al, you guys pose very good points and I'm thankful you guys do!

I'll address my trigger pull first. The best part of what I do to the gun, is that I can dial all the spring forces in to the individual gun. I can make the pull weight (now) from sub 3 lbs. to 8lbs or anywhere in between. I would say that for most of the shooters 4.5 lbs seems to be the ideal balance between trigger return and lightness.

The sub 3 lb pull project was simply an experiment to see just where the limit of ignition was with the existing Smith lock work as it was designed over 100+ years ago. It's not a trigger pull for everyone. But with the process I have gained so much knowledge about the system and how altering one part affects the entire operation. I have also learned a great deal about myself in the process.

In order for me to gain the advantages of the lighter pull, I've had to retrain my muscles and nerve responses to operate the trigger finger faster and not rely on the rebound spring to do my work for me. It is more akin to the trigger slap that Todd Jarrett uses. What I have found over time is that my splits are at the least just as fast as with a heavier return, but also they are more consistent over the course of 8 rounds or more. I believe a few other shooters have discovered this too. My best estimate is that it takes at least 6 months to retrain the muscles and nerve pathways to fire faster and therefore move faster. Jerry shot my gun over a year ago and he couldn't outrun the gun.

For those with arthritis or hand injuries, the light trigger pull has allowed them to enjoy revolver action shooting sports and the people involved in it where they might not otherwise have been able to.

Randy

[Keith]

Randy,

When the snow starts flying here in Mn and the shooting season is pretty much at an end I do believe I will be sending you a revolver to work your magic on. I bought it used from a buddy who told me he had a trigger job done on it. It is fairly smooth but the trigger pull is about 10 pounds according to my tester.

Keith

[R112mercer]

"Gosh Rob, I would think wearing a ball lock on your yoke would be even more painful than getting a hole in the palm...."

I gotta put a lock on everything with the way lawyers are these days. By the way, Mike, how is the extorti... er, legal trade these days?

And as for you Keith, I've seen your split times, you don't need to get any faster. But you will love the trigger job.

[Randy Lee]

Spook,

The trigger work should last indefinitely- all things being equal. I have guns that I worked on back in 1983 that are still in operation. Granted, they are safe queens now and aren't to the same degree of lightness that I am doing today. However, the fundamental process remains the same. The 4-4.5 lb trigger work was tested for 2 years before I released it . I try to take into account longevity of my work so that I don't produce any boomerang guns. I'm rather tired of buying disposable cars that are engineered to fall apart after so many miles and would rather have my return customers come to me with their new guns instead of guns that I have previously worked on.

Keith,

Winter time is the ideal time to send me the gun. I'm still trying to finish up the revo's I picked up at this year's IRC. Poor Cliff Walsh and some of the others on this forum have been waiting patiently for me finish their guns up(thanks guys!).

Carmoney,

As to the problems encountered with major rounds in the Ti cylinders, I will make sure that the extraction problems are eliminated before I have my name associated with the product. There are a lot of high tech materials and treatment processes which can be applied to the cylinders which will resolve this issue at minimal cost. This is of coure assuming the engineers at Smith haven't resolved this issue already-I haven't spoken to them yet.

The ideas and recommendations that I make to Smith may or may not be listened to with any credibility. They may want to make this a project that is comparable in price to their standard 625 so that it is affordable to a broad range of consumers.

The suggestions that I have made in regards to the 625Ti 6.5" gun are those that I would want to see integrated into a top of the line competition revolver. In my ideal world, the new gun would be delivered with all of my requests incorporated. I suspect reality may fall somewhat short. But you never know-stranger things have happened.

Regards,

Randy

[spook]

Spook,

The trigger work should last indefinitely- all things being equal. I have guns that I worked on back in 1983 that are still in operation. Granted, they are safe queens now and aren't to the same degree of lightness that I am doing today. However, the fundamental process remains the same. The 4-4.5 lb trigger work was tested for 2 years before I released it . I try to take into account longevity of my work so that I don't produce any boomerang guns. I'm rather tired of buying disposable cars that are engineered to fall apart after so many miles and would rather have my return customers come to me with their new guns instead of guns that I have previously worked on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Randy! After the World Shoot I'll see what I can do to get a gun over there. I hope it's not a problem to ship one from over here (seems like my government doesn't like us shipping guns out of the country, but back in is no problem).

I always wanted a revolver with a nice 5lbs. trigger and have it Titanium Nitrated, so it would last forever

[D.carden]

Thats sounds to be a "great gun" in the making.

BUT !!!

Whats the chances of it being available to Calif shooters ?? Considering our drop-test issues and other political BS !!

Dan -"would like to have one"-Carden

[Randy Lee]

Since I live in CA, I hope Smith will submit one. They did for the 327 5" and rather quickly too.

It would be too cruel of a Universe if Smith made the gun and I couldn't get one.

I think CA has a lot of consumers of S&W products. I don't think DOJ and the state legislators thought that the firearms industry would submit as may for drop testing as they do.

[underlug]

Thats sounds to be a "great gun" in the making.

BUT !!!

Whats the chances of it being available to Calif shooters ?? Considering our drop-test issues and other political BS !!

Dan -"would like to have one"-Carden

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey!! I haven't even got my gun from Randy yet and now it is old technology!!!!

[Randy Lee]

Hey Underlug,

I'll make sure your gun is finished before Dan gets his gun.

I heard Dept. of Justice will release one of the new guns to him after they use it for the drop testing.

[Middle Man]

I am particularly familiar with the handgun market nationwide. Revolvers, especially the competition variety, tend to sell a higher percentage to west and south of the Rockies. Smith and Wesson is, I'm sure, well aware of this trend and they have demonstraed, in the past, quick moves to submit to the CADOJ's requirements, onerous as they may be.

[underlug]

Hey Underlug,

I'll make sure your gun is finished before Dan gets his gun.

I heard Dept. of Justice will release one of the new guns to him after they use it for the drop testing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

Just as I said at the IRC, Randy, no hurry. I never rush anybody that is cooking my food, cutting my hair, or, working on one of my guns. Anywho, when I get that one from you, I'll just send you more to do. I know you are one busy man these days.

[Randy Lee]

Thanks Underlug,

That gives me extra time to fiddle with your 627. Incidentally, last week when I tore into your sideplate, I found that Smith had installed a cylinder stop meant for a J-frame. This is a first for me! I installed one of the older forged ones in its stead.

Randy

[hearthco]

Randy Lee starts the equipment race for revos single-handedly.

Welcome to the real IPSC!

Dave

[underlug]

Thanks Underlug,

That gives me extra time to fiddle with your 627. Incidentally, last week when I tore into your sideplate, I found that Smith had installed a cylinder stop meant for a J-frame. This is a first for me! I installed one of the older forged ones in its stead.

Randy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks. Do what is necessary. That makes 3 PC guns that I have had with either an atrocious trigger or some other outrageous internal problem. But they all finished up pretty damn sweet. How is that cylinder latch coming? Do you have time to sleep these days?

[Randy Lee]

Underlug,

Sketches on dinner napkins... I gotta get together with Dave Hearth on this one.

Sleep? Not so much.

I also got the custom singlestack 1911 and IDPA custom 9mm STI guys breathing down my neck to finish their guns.

Dave,

I think you really started this mess with your state-of-the-art uber-moons

And your machining skills!

For everyone reading this - I believe there is a VERY good chance Smith and Wesson is listening. The 6.5" Ti Race 625 may become a reality.