Could a guy cobble together a homemade version of the Para TTR

[Chills1994]

Hi there folks,

Ya'll can read up on the Para Tactical Target Rifle here:

http://www.paraord.com/new/product_rifle.php

It looks like this with the stock UN-folded:

With the stock folded, it looks like this:

In that ^^^ configuration, it is only 26.5 inches long.

I guess it is an optical illusion of sorts, but that barrel really is only 16" long. I guess I am just used to see'ing a gas black or a front sight tower out in front of the free float tube.

I have a brand new in the wrapper AR upper, still, that I would like to build on. I have assembled AR's before, so, yeah, I know it would take a lot more money and parts to put together another....especially a TTR clone.

IIRC, there are folks out there who are making conversion kits to take a DI system AR and converting it over to a piston op rod assembly instead.

However...I am ASSuming those are still using a buffer tube in the stock that returns the bolt back into battery.

What say you?

Do-able?

Not do-able?

Parts not available to consumers just yet?

Thanks in advance!

PS: I am in ILL-annoyed so SBR'ing anything is outta the picture. And highly verboten.

PPS: This would be more of a fun gun, not necessarily a 3 gun race AR. And yeah, I kinda know this design came from Alan Zitta (of ZM) first.

ETA: changing Zitta's first name from Tony to Alan...sorry Alan.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Chills1994

[cas]

Yep.. you still need a buffer/tube with a piston gun.

[Chills1994]

So, I am guessing Alan Zitta came up with a way of getting the "op rod" or whatever springs hidden between the top of the barrel and the inside of the free-float tube to snap the BCG closed.

That might explain why that upper looks so much taller in the pics I posted above, plus the monolithic looking rail going across the top.

Thanks for the reply. Man that was quick!

ETA: changing Zitta's first name from Tony to Alan...sorry Alan.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

I should have done a search first. [/facepalm]

Anywhooo.... I guess Yankee Hill Machine was making these Zitta style AR's for a while, but their marketing just wasn't there.

I guess Para bought the licensing and then YHM stopped selling them.

Somewhere else here on the forum (when I did the search) someone said you could buy the upper from Para for like $1,600 and I guess.... ...that also came with the folding stock and its interface to go on your already, mainly assembled lower.

Cha ching $$$

[Hammar]

I was just about to post about Yankee hill. My buddy has one of those uppers and added the folding stock. I saw that YHM was not offering it anymore when I went looking for one for a friend.

I don't like the upper very much as it is heavy and a pain in the rear to field strip IMHO.

[TRUBL]

I believe that it uses the AK style of operating system....the recoil spring is over the bolt carrier.

There may be some subtle differences between what they are actually using and the AK, but probably very similar. Note that the upper receiver is not a standard AR, about a 1/4" higher or so to accomidate the spring.

Tim

[StealthyBlagga]

The DIGS system is not a piston design - it just extends the carrier key of the AR15 direct impingement system forwards to ride on a shorter gas tube. The recoil spring rides under the handguard on this extended carrier key, and thus the buffer tube is eliminated. Almost every part in the upper is proprietary, including the upper receiver, the bolt carrier, the carrier key and the forend. Its an ingenious solution if you must have a folding stock. Other than the folding stock, I'm not seeing a lot in this gun to justify the $$$ versus a standard AR15.

Edited January 19, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[Chills1994]

Thanks for all the replies, everybody.

I still have an AK frame to build on too. That might just end up being the much, much cheaper route to go with in terms of putting together something with a folding stock.

[StealthyBlagga]

Thanks for all the replies, everybody.

I still have an AK frame to build on too. That might just end up being the much, much cheaper route to go with in terms of putting together something with a folding stock.

Good God - you must be desperate for a folding stock to endure a rifle that was designed for illiterate peasants just to get one. An AR15 with an M4 stock is not all that much longer... do you REALLY need something that short ?

[Chills1994]

Need is a subjective term.

Cool-ness factor is subjective too.

Probably with either build, it would just be way...WAY cheaper to buy one of CMMG's bargain bin AR's (M4 clones) for around $550-ish.

I'm suffering from cabin fever here, and a need to go build something.

Hmmn...I still "owe" a forum member here some airsoft target boxes. Hmmmn...They didn't quite pass the first phase of T and E....Hmmn...

I guess I could go tinker on the Mark II version of my target boxes. Hmmn....Hmmmn...Hmmn...

There is also DSA's FAL clones that come with a folding stock too. Although, I am thinking I would have to pester a forum member here who has made is own out of Imbel receivers. Hmmn...

[cas]

I think Bushmaster sold a similar setup a ways back, maybe only briefly?

[Chills1994]

so I am at a barnes and noble while my truck is getting worked on.

browsing the periodicals I spot the shotgun news treasury. inside it is an article by david fortier on the Para TTR. the article has plenty of up close pics of the operating rod system and its special proprietary bolt carrier group.

so....hmmmn....ugg...NOPE! this is something that wouldn't be feasible with a regular AR upper.

[Chills1994]

also of interest in that same article is fortier's review of the IOR Valdada 1.5-8X26mm Tactical scope....

if he had only included pics of the illuminated reticle...sigh...

he says that the reticle has holdover lines which represent 21 inches at range...the width of a human's shoulders. so that makes range estimation possible...I thought that was a neat idea.

[Bryan 45]

Rock River is making something similar.

http://rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=442

[Chills1994]

oooppss. just wanted to point something out that I goofed up on above. Like the other poster said it is still a direct impingement gas system. NOT an op rod, like I mentioned above. Looking at the pictures from Fortier's article, the Para TTR has a bolt carrier group that just has a realllly loooonnnnggg key. it fits over the gas tube, under the picattiny rail between the handguard gap.

[jaredr]

Rock River is making something similar.

http://rockriverarms...category_id=442

man, i hate to sound like a jackass, but i'm looking at the para and wondering what problem does it solve that can't be addressed by running a traditional direct impingement gun and keeping it lubed? sure, if i had the cash i'd pick up one of everything new just to have it (because it is cool to own lots of rifles). unfortunately, i don't so i'm really looking to understand what are the improvements in function that you get from these guns (the para with it's funky foot long carrier key & spring assembly, or even the more "normal looking" piston systems from patriot arms or LWRC)? best i can see is reduction in cleaning & maintenance (for the piston guns), which i would agree is a good thing. on the other hand, you really don't have to invest much effort cleaning your DI gun (unless you're being held to a traditional corps standard of being able to eat off of your bolt carrier, which is a different problem) Only benefit I can see to the Para is the folding stock - ok, maybe that's enough to sell it. personally i'd rather have something lighter with standard parts (so I can swap when/if needed) and without the requirement for extra clearance along the top.

not flaming anyone who likes piston guns or trying to promote the traditional direct impingement kool aid, but genuinely interested in understanding what other benefits there might be from some of these systems that I'm just not understanding.

[GTOSHootr]

oooppss. just wanted to point something out that I goofed up on above. Like the other poster said it is still a direct impingement gas system. NOT an op rod, like I mentioned above. Looking at the pictures from Fortier's article, the Para TTR has a bolt carrier group that just has a realllly loooonnnnggg key. it fits over the gas tube, under the picattiny rail between the handguard gap.

"The LR-300 or the new TTR-Para rifle is a (DIGS) (delayed impinged gas system) meaning the gas is picked up from the barrel port and goes through the delay travel in the gas block and down the gas tube that intercourses the hollow op-rod and exhausts out the ports in the carrier. - Allan"

I learned more about working on guns in one day at Aldo's shop than I did in all my previous years of shooting.

Edited August 12, 2010 by GTOSHootr

[caspian guy]

Poo

Rock River is making something similar.

http://rockriverarms...category_id=442

man, i hate to sound like a jackass, but i'm looking at the para and wondering what problem does it solve that can't be addressed by running a traditional direct impingement gun and keeping it lubed? sure, if i had the cash i'd pick up one of everything new just to have it (because it is cool to own lots of rifles). unfortunately, i don't so i'm really looking to understand what are the improvements in function that you get from these guns (the para with it's funky foot long carrier key & spring assembly, or even the more "normal looking" piston systems from patriot arms or LWRC)? best i can see is reduction in cleaning & maintenance (for the piston guns), which i would agree is a good thing. on the other hand, you really don't have to invest much effort cleaning your DI gun (unless you're being held to a traditional corps standard of being able to eat off of your bolt carrier, which is a different problem) Only benefit I can see to the Para is the folding stock - ok, maybe that's enough to sell it. personally i'd rather have something lighter with standard parts (so I can swap when/if needed) and without the requirement for extra clearance along the top.

not flaming anyone who likes piston guns or trying to promote the traditional direct impingement kool aid, but genuinely interested in understanding what other benefits there might be from some of these systems that I'm just not understanding.

I think the problem al was trying to solve was a semi-auto ar pistol without a buffer tube he could use for the long range portion of the Masters match.

[Dan Sierpina]

I think the problem al was trying to solve was a semi-auto ar pistol without a buffer tube he could use for the long range portion of the Masters match.

Al just made up a manual action version for the Masters. The charging handle pulled the bolt open, then pushed it closed. It had no tube on the back, so obviously the bolt carrier was shortened.