38 super

[Jon Merricks]

I'm curious about the 38 super round. What makes it so great and why is it not common outside of compitition? When I was first exposed to compitition shooting in the early 80's (I think) all I saw was 45's. Why is it such a good comp. round. I'm not up on the ballsitics but are'nt the 38 super and 357 sig close.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Jon,

The answers are simple: pressure and capacity.  The Super is the longest medium-bore cartridge that fits in a 1911 package.  The length allows the round to make Major without going into complete pressure meltdown as the 9x19 would.  (although with the rate of powder improvements, the next generation of powders may change that)

Pressure runs a comp, and comps get sights back on target faster, so the Super initially replaced the .45.

The capacity advantage is in magazines.  Yes, a .357 Sig can do anything a .38 super does, except fit as many into a magazine. No one wants to give up capacity when faced with a long field course.

Capacity is the same reason the .40 is used in Limited guns instead of .45.  For a given tube volume, you can fit two, three or four more .40's than .45's.

Patrick

[Jon Merricks]

Patrick thanks for that insight. But why has the 38 super not made it as a personal protection or law enforcement round? It sound like it would do the job.

[Duane Thomas]

The reason is the length of the cartridge. Short rounds like 9mm Parabellum or .40 S&W can fit into medium frame guns with smallish grips. Even with a high-cap double-stack mag, grips aren't - in general - too large for most hands. But a long round like .38 Super requires a large frame gun (size, weight) and a grip that's fairly long front-to-back. That's not too much of a problem with single-stack mags, but in double stackers the grip becomes a bit large for many folks' hands, and also too large for best concealment.

[38supPat]

Remember too the super goes back to 1929. Back then they had it headspace on the semi-rim, not the case mouth as it does now. So accuracy left a little to be desired. But it was origionally designed as a law enforcement round. However nowadays there are few pistols chambered for it that meet law enforcement requirements (DA or DAO) in fact off the top of my head only the Sig p-220 comes to mind. Duane you know of any others? also there's not much in the way of ammo selection 130 gr round nose jacketed or Win. silvertip not much else.

Pat

[Patrick Sweeney]

Gents,

The .38 Super dates from 1929, but is a magnum version of the .38 auto originally in the Colt 1900, Pocket 1903, etc.  The Colt 1900 series used a ramped barrel (nothing new under the sun) and headspaced on the rim because there was room on top and bottom for the rim recess.  Using FMJ ammo, there was no feeding problem with the bullet skipping over the rim recess.

The Super, going into a 1911, can't have a bottom rim recess, so the top recess was all there was.  Accuracy, what accuracy?  Back then, you shot bullseye, or you pointed and slapped the trigger in some sort of weird "instinctive" shooting.  Besides, most of the Supers went to Mexico, and there were few complaints about accuracy coming back to Hartford.

Yes, it was a lwa-enforcement round back then, but so were BAR's, fifteen-shot magazined Remington Model 8's in .35 Remington and a whole lot of other hardware.

I remember shooting some Winchester Silvertips loaded with 147 grain bullets back in the early 1980's.  Hottest damned ammo I ever fired in that caliber until I loaded .38 Super to major ten years later.  Although not as hot as a lot of S&W (yes, they made ammo)manufactured .45ACP.  230 FMJ's that clocked 998 fps.

I still have some, I don't know why.

Patrick

[Jon Merricks]

Thanks Pat and Patrick for the info and your time.

[38supPat]

Lol...I didn't say it was the ideal law enforcement round, just that it was used.

Pat

[Patrick Sweeney]

The super had a brief foray as a law enforcement cartridge due to its penetration.  Dealing with robbers working in automobiles as getaway vehicles, and early body armor(plate steel in a cotton vest)the Super got through, when .45 ACP, .38 Special and all the others didn't.

Then again, if you knew you were dealing with hard-asses, as Hamer did when he ambushed Bonnie and Clyde, you start with a BAR and work your way up from there.

The newly-armed FBI went with .357 Magnum snubbies, and the Super died an early death.  We ressurected it, but modern law enforcement insists on a DA or DAO pistol, and the Super is too long to fit in a frame that "small statured troops" can handle comfortably.

[Duane Thomas]

"I still have some, I don't know why."

Probably because who in their right mind would really want to shoot it.

[38supPat]

Sig did or does produce the P-220 in .38 super

Pat

[Patrick Sweeney]

Pat,

Yes, Sig makes/made the 220 in .38 super, but the focus was on "lotsa bullets" when it first came out and who wanted to trade a 15 shot 9mm for an eight shot .38 super?  I understand that Mas Ayoob has an unfired, low serial number 220 still in the box.  Loot from a match, and held as a collectors item.  But Mas has a longer world-view than I do.

Duane,

The S&W ammo was all hot, and positively weird.  Would you believe a 9mm load using fmj semi wadcutters?  Or, how about  their .357 magnum load of a 95 grain bullet at 1700 fps?  I  heard rumors of that one breaking guns, so only fired it enough to check the velocity, and from a Ruger Blackhawk.  Of course, with the new sale, we may all be able to bring ourselves to buying S&W's again.

Patrick

[Duane Thomas]

New sale? Not to expose my ignorance here - after all, I should know such things, right - but clue me in.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Duane,

Thompkins sold S&W for $5 mil cash up front, $10 mil paid in a few years, and assumption of $30m mil in debt, to Saf-T-Hammer.  (Numbers from memory, and caffiene dependant)  the owner of S-T-H used to ve a V.P. at S&W.  Not a bad deal, assuming they want to and can get out from under the Clinton agreement.

If they can't, or don't want to, it is money down a rat hole, as the customers are not likely to line up just because there is a new face behind the counter.

Patrick

[Chris Leong]

115gr JFP, I'm thinking of maybe sticking with VV powder (using N320 right now in 40S&W), but of course am open to suggestions.

Best starting loads for 168-170PF??

Gun will either be an SV 38S with Hybricomp or a Limcat 38S with the shorter 5 port comp, both Govt sized.

[benos]

Chris,

I'd go with vit 350, I'll leave how much to someone else. Pat?

be

[ErikW]

I hope you understand you can't use N320 to make Major, but there are other, slower, Viht. powders which will do it safely. N350 seems the most popular. I use 3N37 because it is suitable and it was on hand. Works fine for me, and I'm a big sissy about sharp loads.

Speaking on behalf of squadmates and range officers everywhere, I suggest you get the normal comp gun instead of the Hybricomp. Those things are too loud and make my teeth hurt.

[Bill H]

Hybrids are tougher on brass because of the higher pressures you have to run. I went to a 2 port hybridcomp and my brass is much happier than with the 4 port.I like the way the gun handles more with it too.

Bill Hearne

[Patrick Sweeney]

The Viht manual shows 115's making Major with 7.9 of 3N37 and 1430 fps.  Max pressure in a .38 Super case.  The Hybrid barrel would need more powder to keep velocities up.

If you go to 9x23 data, the starting load is the ceiling load for the Super (7.9 gr.)  But the 9x23 maxes out at 47K psi, instead of 34K as the Super does.

From the Viht data, N350 doesn't seem to be burning efficiently until you've met or exceeded the 38 Super ceiling.

Since we all overload the Super anyway, worrying about the threshold is not something Open shooters worry about, but I thought I'd start there.

Which cases were you thinking of running?

N340 is another possibility, but it is a slightly faster powder, thus you'd have less gas flow to feed the comp.

N320 is not an option, it doesn't come close to making Major in the Super, and the 9x23 pressure range is beyond its consistent burning range.

Before going to a Hybrid with more than two ports, try one.  Or better yet, stand next to a 4-port gun.  One of the guys at our club runs a four-port hybricomp, and RO's hide when he shows up.  Indoors, we'd just hand him the timer and let him run himself if he wasn't a known chiseler.

[razorback]

I shoot IMR SR4756 with 115 FMJ. This load shoots extremely well in my 38s. The N350 seems to have a much sharper report.

(Edited by razorback at 3:37 pm on Aug. 29, 2001)

[kellyn]

Last time I talked to Leatham, he was running V V 340 in his open gun.  

[Chris Leong]

Thanks guys for the input. Actually, I was a little ahead of myself. I only just got the gun this weekend, it's a Limcat with a standard 5-port (3up, 2 side) comp, and a 4" barrel.

Winchester 38S+P brass, WSR primers, Berry's or Rainier 124ish jacketeds, VV350 powder.

Start at 6.8???

[38supPat]

O.k. with 115's it seems 8.8 grs of N-350 is a pretty standard load...but start lower...around 8.0 - 8.2 and see where velocity is. Do not use the Vit books for load data, they have never proven very accurate...look up some threads on .38super loads under this forum or under the BEginners area

I currently use 3N37 I find it a bit softer though it is a faster powder.. Start at about 9.0 grs. I use 9.5 but again start lower.

Just tried the new 3N38 on Sat. Pretty cool but I don't have quite enough data to compare...I shot it through one of the new IMM guns from SVI (I'll have mine this week (my new car too...what a week)) so I'm not quite familiar enough with the tracking or felt recoil on this set up..Its a pretty light gun so even though the loads felt sharp it may because I'm not used to the weight, and I did not have any 3N37 loads to compare it with in that gun.

Pat

O.k. I looked over forum...my bad...this is the first thread on .38 super loads...the old forum had vast data on different loads...now all gone

(Edited by Pat Harrison at 6:38 am on Sep. 3, 2001)

[Chris Leong]

Thanks Pat. Well, we'll just have to start again, won't we? I'll be posting chrony results as soon as I measure em.

[ErikW]

I use 3n37 under a 115 like Pat, and 9.0 gr is my load at 169-171 PF, depending on chrono voodoo. So I'd suggest starting lower than the 9.0 Pat suggested. Especially since you got the comped, unported Limcat. Especially since, with a standard firing pin, in my gun it melts the primers in factory-primed RP brass.

You mentioned Berrys and Rainier "jacketed" bullets. Both of those mfrs. make or made copper plated, not truly jacketed, bullets. They will cause much higher pressures than jacketed bullets! Use lead bullet loading data for them.