Open Gun Question

[BSeevers]

There's are a lot of "big boys" in Limited and remember a C class shooters in Limited is usually a C in Open.

Open is not a magic gun, its "easier to shoot" but its easier for everybody in that divison, so competition breaks out accordingly.

Edited January 16, 2010 by BSeevers

[Flyin40]

I started with a 40 open gun. To get a feel for what that is like, shoot a single stack in Limited. I really like the feel of that gun it was super soft just not competitive.

Sorry but couldn't let this slide. This just isn't true. Maybe if you started Uspsa with a 40cal Open gun it might have been your level of experience and may have felt like that to you. Its the shooter and not the gun.

Flyin

[mildot1]

If your buddy shoots any other class I would definately use a Quinn mount, it really eliminates a lot of the dot search! You still need a ton of presentation practice to make the swap but the gun will be in the close to the same plane as an iron sighted gun.

I'm still running about 2/10th's slower with the open gun that the limited on 1st shot but I'm getting 98% A's and I know when I drop a point. That's just an issue of trigger control that I'm still working on.

I'm not to worried about the mag capacity since so far(and my experience is limited) since I have yet to see a stage that there was no place to change a mag on the run. I am sure that I will some day but I'm not ready to drop a couple hundred bucks for one yet.

I really feel that the red dot has helped me more than anything yet, shows a lot of mistakes that irons don't!!

[G-ManBart]

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

[G-ManBart]

If your buddy shoots any other class I would definately use a Quinn mount, it really eliminates a lot of the dot search! You still need a ton of presentation practice to make the swap but the gun will be in the close to the same plane as an iron sighted gun.

I'm still running about 2/10th's slower with the open gun that the limited on 1st shot but I'm getting 98% A's and I know when I drop a point. That's just an issue of trigger control that I'm still working on.

I'm not to worried about the mag capacity since so far(and my experience is limited) since I have yet to see a stage that there was no place to change a mag on the run. I am sure that I will some day but I'm not ready to drop a couple hundred bucks for one yet.

I really feel that the red dot has helped me more than anything yet, shows a lot of mistakes that irons don't!!

Division

Edit to add: I've said it many times, but the dot is the most important part of an Open gun....most/many people never take advantage of the compensator (at least not properly).

Edited January 16, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Neomet]

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

Not counting unclassified shooters in either division it is 4,962 Open and 8,180 Limited.

[G-ManBart]

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

Not counting unclassified shooters in either division it is 4,962 Open and 8,180 Limited.

Cool...thanks.

I figured that there had to be more Limited shooters than Open....just wouldn't make sense the other way around. Since so many of us are classified in more than one division the numbers probably don't mean a whole lot either way.

For the OP, Virgil Tripp has an ad in the USPSA classifieds for a brand new (150 test rounds) Open gun that sounds like it would fit the bill perfectly, for $2400:

"Scheumann barrel, accurate, lightened STI slide, soft/flat shooting comp, quick handling, 2.5 lb. crisp trigger, magwell, ambi, full length guide rod, Allchin blast deflector scope mount, C-more 6 minute dot, Aftec extractor, completely reliable, perfect, ready to race, fewer than 150 rounds. Hardchrome finish. Built by Virgil Tripp. Pictures available at trippresearch.com/uspsa"

[Flyin40]

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

When I said deeper I was meaning the talent pool. Looks like 2009 was different was alittle closer. It consistently takes a better match % to finish in the top 16 at nationals in limited than in Open. It just always been a tighter race. 2008 limited race was pretty amazing. It took 94% to finish in the top 10, now that is amazing.

The trend that is happening now is that Open is starting to catch up. In 2006 there was a 7% difference from Open to limited in the 16th place. In the last 4 yrs Open is gaining about 1-2% per yr. It just means its getting harder and to be a top finisher in Open.

2006 Open 10th 88%

16th 82%

2007 Open 10th 89%

16th 84%

2008 Open 10th 89%

16th 85%

2009 Open 10th 90%

16th 87%

2006 Limited 10th 91%

16th 89%

2007 Limited 10th 93%

16th 90%

2008 Limited 10th 94%

16th 89%

2009 Limited 10th 91%

16th 89%

Flyin

[splashdown]

For me, cheap brass and using a top end already acc-u-railed to my frame is why I went 40 open. Sure there's a 3-5 round capacity disadvantage to 9/38, but it won't bite you too often. I've loaded 4 different bullets with 3 different powders and I'm still looking for a decent load. I've mainly just tinkered with it off and on for the past year working with chrono and dot track. I haven't given it a fair chance yet, but someday I hope to find a combination that will work well. There in lies the problem with the 40 in open. There may be 30 or so people willing to admit they shoot the 40 in open, but everyone's using a different setup (barrel length, barrel type, comp type, bullet type, powder choice). So for the most part, you're on your own to find the right load for your gun. It takes time.

FWIW, I think I will settle on 8.6 grains of Power Pistol with the 135 grain Rainier. I've done a round of testing with AutoComp and have to test it some more before I come to any conclusions on that powder. Silhouette didn't work well in my gun (too much gas volume, not enough pressure).

[G-ManBart]

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

When I said deeper I was meaning the talent pool. Looks like 2009 was different was alittle closer. It consistently takes a better match % to finish in the top 16 at nationals in limited than in Open. It just always been a tighter race. 2008 limited race was pretty amazing. It took 94% to finish in the top 10, now that is amazing.

The trend that is happening now is that Open is starting to catch up. In 2006 there was a 7% difference from Open to limited in the 16th place. In the last 4 yrs Open is gaining about 1-2% per yr. It just means its getting harder and to be a top finisher in Open.

2006 Open 10th 88%

16th 82%

2007 Open 10th 89%

16th 84%

2008 Open 10th 89%

16th 85%

2009 Open 10th 90%

16th 87%

2006 Limited 10th 91%

16th 89%

2007 Limited 10th 93%

16th 90%

2008 Limited 10th 94%

16th 89%

2009 Limited 10th 91%

16th 89%

Flyin

Sure, but you're talking about at the top....not where the average person starts out

Regardless, I'm sure there are more Limited shooters active than Open shooters. I'm just not so sure that for the typical B/C shooter they'll find a whole lot of difference in the talent pool in either one. Probably just as many sandbaggin' Bs in Open as Limited

[Flyin40]

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

When I said deeper I was meaning the talent pool. Looks like 2009 was different was alittle closer. It consistently takes a better match % to finish in the top 16 at nationals in limited than in Open. It just always been a tighter race. 2008 limited race was pretty amazing. It took 94% to finish in the top 10, now that is amazing.

The trend that is happening now is that Open is starting to catch up. In 2006 there was a 7% difference from Open to limited in the 16th place. In the last 4 yrs Open is gaining about 1-2% per yr. It just means its getting harder and to be a top finisher in Open.

Flyin

Sure, but you're talking about at the top....not where the average person starts out

Regardless, I'm sure there are more Limited shooters active than Open shooters. I'm just not so sure that for the typical B/C shooter they'll find a whole lot of difference in the talent pool in either one. Probably just as many sandbaggin' Bs in Open as Limited

Exactly, thats why I said deeper and not a bigger division. The guys buddy thought Open was where all the big boys hang out. I just pointed out that Limited is the tougher division, he wasn't talking about the average guy.

Anyways we are way off topic

Flyin

[calishootr]

the talent pool is as wide as it is deep, for lots of reason, hey Ray, if your buddy has the cash, then by all means jump on in, the water is warm

on the topic of open guns, they are 'easier' to shoot IF an that's a big IF your payin attention what they are telling you, watching the dot is a hell of a lot easier than lining up the front and rear irons, especially for us olderfolks that their(ok mine) eyes aint whatthey used to be....

now forthe not so fun part, going into open w/ a custom racgun is not always a majic carpet ride, if you get a new one, they are far from plug an play, canttell you how many hairs i pulled out, and threatend to sink it in a bucket of cement and use it for a boat anchor, buying used, it may be broke in, but they havethier own pitfalls and hidden demons....they are sometimes fickle creatures that dont like whatthey are being fed, and like a 2 yr old who just ate a whole bag of oreo's will puke atthe slightest thing....

that being said....i've been at itfor 21 yrs now...the majority of it in open, and its been one hell of a ride

[G-ManBart]

Exactly, thats why I said deeper and not a bigger division. The guys buddy thought Open was where all the big boys hang out. I just pointed out that Limited is the tougher division, he wasn't talking about the average guy.

Anyways we are way off topic

Flyin

Yeah, that's why about 20 posts back I said Limited was a very deep pool. My point about wondering about the depth of those pools was that at some matches, and in some clubs the pool for Open is deeper than the pool for Limited. Maybe not always, but in some places it is.

What I have seen, and what may have made his buddy think this, is a club where the handful of shooters, who are clearly the best, all shoot Open. Someone who doesn't know better could easily assume that folks sort of work their way up the ladder, when that's not the case at all.

It's not entirely off topic since his friend was under a false assumption that the OP will now easily be able to correct

[Religious Shooter]

Just a note... the OP's friend is (probably) in Kalifornia. So unless the gun is already in Kalifornia he generally can't buy it.

[Pezco]

I think Flying 40 said it best, "it's the shooter not the gun". I fully agree with this statement until you get to the Master & GM level where the advantages of 38SC and 9 Major start to kick in.

[LPatterson]

Yeah, that's why about 20 posts back I said Limited was a very deep pool. My point about wondering about the depth of those pools was that at some matches, and in some clubs the pool for Open is deeper than the pool for Limited. Maybe not always, but in some places it is.

The Open pool at the local club is so shallow that 5 buckle boots would keep the feet dry.

[Flyin40]

I think Flying 40 said it best, "it's the shooter not the gun". I fully agree with this statement until you get to the Master & GM level where the advantages of 38SC and 9 Major start to kick in.

It would seem like that would be the case. As a Master in Open capacity or anything that has to do with the gun is still far from affecting my overall match finish. Master and GM's still make very big mistakes. It may not look like it alot of times when watching M's and GM's but shooting a course and something as simple as not hitting your positions perfectly in a stage can cost you a couple seconds easily. That is a huge mistake when it comes down to finish from a 18 sec run vs a 20-21 seconds run. Thats big, at nationals that can be 20 or 30 places and quite a few match points.

My point is that the gun can come into play but executing the basic fundmentals outweigh the gun 1,000,000 to 1 everytime. Even at the top this applies.

Flyin

[calishootr]

I agree with Flyin40's statement 100 percent, butthe people who are coming intothis sport now are ofthe 'plug an play' generation, they wantthat majic bullet, that instant gratification NOW....just showing up with cool gear, does not mean you will win a match right offthe bat, the inidan behind the bow an arrow, has to learn what all that cool gee-wiz-bang stuff can do for him/her

like I posted earlier, will it help??? only if you know what its telling and how to respond to the information given

for yrs i was a gadget and gizmo guy, till i learned thatthe equipment is only goingto get you so far,its up tothe guy behind the thing, as to how far he can take it(amazing what age an experience does for a person, funny i wish i hadthis same knowlege back when i was frist starting out inthis sport)

[BSeevers]

Its funny how people try to "buy" a win. I guess they relate it to auto/sailboat/cycle/etc racing. The guy who has the most money can afford the most powerful engines. True to a point, but its still a great driver performance that wins.

There was a period in this sport where money helped matches. Guns that ran won and only a few people could make them. I used to carry 3 Aimpoints/Tascos just to make it through a match. Gunsmiths used to attend the Nationals and work on guns there. Heck I remember a story of Jerry B felt his gun was a little loose at the Nationals or SC. He put it in a vise, Squeezed, and made lapping compound from a crushed dremel bit and gun oil to get it running. I think he won too.

I don't think you see much of that happening now in the winners circle.

Its the shooter and if you don't understand that you aren't paying attention

[Religious Shooter]

That's the most condescending post that I've seen on BE.

[Nik Habicht]

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

Well, yeah --- but that probably had a lot to do with format.....

Open was paired with L10; Limited with Production and Revolver.....

Production right now is what --- 3rd in popularity? So if the pairing was O/P and L/L10/R those numbers might change....

[ong45]

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

I always wonder about this. There were 50 more Open shooters than Limited shooters at the 2009 Nationals. I'm not sure if USPSA has posted the total number of shooters classified per division, but it would be interesting to know. R,

Well, yeah --- but that probably had a lot to do with format.....

Open was paired with L10; Limited with Production and Revolver.....

Production right now is what --- 3rd in popularity? So if the pairing was O/P and L/L10/R those numbers might change....

Better look up the results again, pairing was opn/prod then ltd, L-10 ,revo

This thread has veered extremely off topic into a Equiptment / division jihad

Edited January 18, 2010 by ong45

[Micah]

Its funny how people try to "buy" a win. I guess they relate it to auto/sailboat/cycle/etc racing. The guy who has the most money can afford the most powerful engines. True to a point, but its still a great driver performance that wins.

I could not agree more.

[rgkeller]

Since he has the bucks, I would advise your friend to buy a 9mm Open pistol that was put together by a (reasonably) local gunsmith.

If he has a place to practice and recover his brass, then 38SC won't cost much more than 9mm Major to shoot.

A smith you can get to in person with the pistol is an invaluable asset.

[gunracer38]

If I was just starting out with Open. I would go with 9mm. It seems to get better as more different powders are used. I have been shooting 38 Super since the beginning and now its hard to find brass.