Sterling White Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Someone asked "how can the point series be improved?". Last week I typed the following response up and placed it in a different thread but after thinking about it this weekend decided to create a new thread. In doing this I'm hoping that others that have shot the point series can provide their thoughts. The idea came about while drinking a good cup of coffee and watching football. As a culture we love earning points; in football a touchdown = 7 pts, in hockey a goal = 1pt, and there are the nascar and winston cup point series.. . this list can go way on. What about performance? This system would reward a competitor points based on order of finish in class. Here's the basic breakdown based on a shooters finish.... local match by class: 1st = 5pts, 2nd = 4pts, 3rd = 3pts, 4th = 2pts, and 5th = 1pt State/Section points: top 20 by class; 1st = 20....20th = 1pt Area Matches: top 20 by class; 1st = 50....20 = 7pts Nat'l Finals: top 20 by class; 1st = 100....20 = 14pts Would 12 local, 2 state/sec, 2 area, 1 Nat'l matches work to keep a level playing field (300 points if the comp earned max points)? Could the point series be utilized for cash rewards? Yes and here's a few cash flow basics: Points would only be good for the shooting year, points would follow or stick with a person for the respective class even if that person jumps class, and would allow the person to collect points in various classes. The club would collect the fee by class(ex: $1) that would feed the system and goes something like this....$0.10 club, $0.20 section, $0.30 area, and $0.40 going to the National pot. Point winners at the local club would get a payback by class with the stakes getting more serious as you climb the ladder. How would this work? A little accounting and EZ winscore of course! Do you think this system would encourage more B/C/D shooters to compete in the series? Thats a good question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 gmw2b, The concept sounds great but as an Area 1 shooter with the closest club 180 miles away and no state shoot there is no incentive for me. While there are other Area 1 shooters that can shoot almost every weekend by moving indoors. Won't this also make the professional shooter more professional since they would be going to these matches anyway. Some where in the money distribution there needs to be an administrative cost at the national level. How much of the $.40 at the national level can be used adminstratively? Make it enough so that it pays for itself/USPSA makes money and I would vote for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted December 21, 2003 Author Share Posted December 21, 2003 Graywolf, Thanks for the positive feedback. Gosh...Having to drive 180 miles would make it difficult to acquire the needed 12 matches (or more) to receive maximum points at the local level. The idea that competition between buddies would heat up because shooters would start tracking points earned (whether a A/B/C/D shooter) instead of looking at overall finish in the results. Am not too sure that I understand your point about being more professional. This system would encourage all point series competitor to shoot at the larger matches and even the nationals just for the cash payback if for no other reason. The point series championship this year became a quest myself and other friends. OK a quest is probably an understatement. Along the route several things became obvious with the current system. Some shooters realized that they had limited opportunity to attend point serie matches. Some shooters earned more points than normal because the match did not have a GM setting the pace. Others had mixed feelings on giving an extra $10 at the match because they really didn't understand what the point series meant or what the paybacks were. So, instead of match directors requesting that a specific match be listed in the point series the opposite would happen with this proposal - every match would qualify as a point serie match in theory and the responsibility would be placed on the shooters to either be in or out. The question becomes....should admistrative money come from the pots? Considering that fees are paid by the shooter just to shoot a match then my answer would be no at the local level. However, if we look at the Information Technology (IT) accomplishments at USPSA for the past couple of years then it would easy to say that the organization is moving much faster than most of the clubs. For this proposal to work then it would really need every club to utilize ezwinscore and update match results on a regular and reliable basis. Some tweeks would need to take place in the IT world for tracking the series championship...so this may be an area of administrative cost. Who knows... TV may even pick up on a point series championship because of the simple concept behind earning points! Sterling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 I like it. Sounds fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pac1911 Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I'm looking forward to the 2004 Point Series and I've started to try and plan my major match attendance, however, I don't know what the format for the point series will be. What have you heard regarding the format for 2004? If you could make any changes to the format to make it more appealing what changes would you make? Thanks for the input! pc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I think that having a point series is definately a good idea, that's why I participated last year. The system currently in place is better than nothing, but could use some improvement. I'm sorry that I don't have anything to contribute to the betterment of the series right now, I just wanted to encourage those of you who do. Sterling may be on the right track, but we need to be careful about how "easily" points are earned. Under that system, is there a limit to the number of points earned at locals? The tougher the competition, the more points the win should be worth, and it's one thing to win local matches, but it's another thing to win at the areas/nationals. Let's keep our thinking caps on....I think this could be more beneficial to the sport than we may know. Talk to you soon with my ideas...I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pac1911 Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I understand the concept of a "quest." I thought of it as "A mission from God." One problem with the current format is that I hardly saw my local matches once summer hit. I was either too busy reloading and traveling (poor me), or too short on cash to shoot the local matches. This actually became a problem. In L10 where I competed, I was not recieving classifiers for major matches due to the fact that GMs were shooting L and O. I improved tremendously throughout the season, but my classification was untouched. Not an intentional on my part, just an inherent flaw with the classification system due to heavy point series participation. I like the idea of having local matches count for the PS. this would increase participation at the local level and also balance out the uneven opportunities that exist between say area 1 and area 6. we will see, I just hope the format is announced soon! pc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 The Point Series format is unchanged from last year. I just registered today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I personally love the point series concept. I've always thought that is a great attribute to consistent shooting through the season. My concern is that today it doesn't hold any legitimacy. Someone could win it (somebody did and I don't know who) and noone would know. The Point series is the right direction - now I would give it weight. Make the National Champion the point series winner. In other words, someone could win "Nationals" but they could not be the National champion if they didn't garner enough points through the season. You'd have to make the nationals worth so many points that there was no way a competitor could skip it and still win. If that were done it would bring so much credibility to the race. Thats what I think at least! JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 The series just ended 6 days ago. The winners will be published in the Front Sight as soon as possible. You can go to the "members" side of the webpage right now and see who the top point shooters are. That way you don't have to wait for the Front Sight article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pac1911 Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Gary - I spoke with Staci at USPSA today and although she stated that nothing was written in stone, the point series would remain unchanged from the format that was used last year. pc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I second JB's idea!! I'm sure Rob won't mind....he's got plenty of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Phil, Maaaaannnnn...your mug is plastered all over this latest issue of Front Sight. And, now you are going to be in the next issue too? We might have to change your nick-name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Yeah, yeah, .......yeah, Skipper's the National Champion, yeah! You've got mail, yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Well how about that....the fastest turtle on the whole east coast had an outstanding year! Congrats to you too turtle. Are you traveling to the Florida Open to kick off the new point series year for a repeat? Saw a post that you may be shooting production this year, any truth to that? JB....you make a good point about finding balance in the point series under the proposal made earlier in this string. Some of us have also been kicking around the "what ifs".... here's one - what would happen if the gun manufacturers (STI, Caspian, SV, Para, Glock.. .) or product/service sponsors (gunsmiths, holster/powders/bullet companies.. .) upped the stakes by providing a contengency for the point series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Sterling, I think that getting the point series more attention/involvement is a great idea. Contingency prizes would be nice, no doubt. Is there any way we could start to get outside involvement? I mean from non shooting type companies. I was hoping the TV deal announced last year was going to help, but so far it's drawn a goose egg. I looked up the schedule too, and the 2003 FGN show is set to make a big debut on OLN just after midnight (12:30am) on 2/24. It looks like the format is set already for this year, so we have a little time to come up with something for next year. Hopefully there will be more involvement this year, I was kinda disappointed in the lack of participation last year. Thanks for the props dude, congrats to you too, good job. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 12, 2004 Author Share Posted January 12, 2004 T... Thats a great point about the non gun related sponsors....wonder what the tabacco and alcohol industries are doing with marketing monies since they are no longer allowed to use TV advertisements? Sterling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 The contingency plans for matches and series sponsor for point series On the contingency part. While I do not shoot an STI, I do think Dave's contingency program is a great approach and I would like to see more vendors/manufacturers start contingency plans. I have seen it work in the SCORE off-road racing series. I think the point series would benefit from a series sponsor ala the NASCAR NEXTEL Cup model. There could be series sponsers for each division, or if a sponsor was able to do so they could spoonsor the whole point series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 The idea of Planning Ahead - Looks as if there are two distinct time-lines that are being followed. hmmmm.... . Has anyone talked, heard rumor, or seen anything from the insiders for the point series out year (2005 and beyond) plans? I'm curious because it looks as if its status quo for 2004. That is ok but if a change is needed it will have to be considered very soon. Here's the reason why: It would be nice to crown a national and point serie winner at the same banquet, would you agree? For this to happen a radical move would required in 2004. All point serie matches would be shot by competitors between now and the 2004 Nationals so the 2005 point series season would be a full one year to run before the 2005 nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I like your idea gmw2b I would like to shoot some point series matches but because of work i cant get to far from home. If local Sectional and state matches counted for points i think there would be more involvment. USPSA could tweek on your idea were needed and i think it would work. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 Great news....just heard the news on this year payback on the point series. $92 payback....woooohoooo. Let me see....hmmmm...thats a $2 dollar profit for this past year considering $90 was spent on the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 gmw2b - Where did you get that information?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 A few of the Point Series winners got a call from Mr Taylor, so there may actually be some sort of exposure for the winners. Here's an idea Robin and I were discussing: What if every state/regional and "other" match in the Point Series added $5 to their match fee to be put into the Point Series pot? So, basically, if your State match managed 170 competitors, that would equate to $850 put towards the Point Series. OR the matches could donate $5.00 of the match fee to the point series, depending on the club's finances. Add an extra $10 for the Area matches Nationals, since they count double and X-4. The point is, what's an extra $5.00 or $10.00? This would help enhance the appeal of the point series championship, the attendance at point series matches, and the participation by the shooters. Maybe this will help put it in perspective. I just figured out how much money was collected the old way: $6480 Money collected this way: $42,915 Think about that. Additionally, these figures do NOT include the standard $10 sign-up fee, either. Last year there were only 139 participants. With this new method, it would be stupid not to pay the $10. The totals could be well over $50,000 after point series sign-up. After the splits of the money, 50% to class winners, 30% to overall winners, and 20% to whoever else (probably USPSA), that would equate to quite a bit of $ for everyone. Hell, if enough B class Limited shooters signed up, that could end up being $1000 for 1st B in the point series. The more people that sign up, the more $ for the series, the more shooters will want to get involved, and the more matches that will fill up. That leads to more sponsors, more publicity, and then even more financial support. It could, and should, be done this way...or something like it. Just trying to make things better/more profitable for everyone. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I'd be irritated if a match took my entry fee and gave it to somebody in the points series. I'm specifically not in the points series because the way the rules are set up screws over those of us living more than 4 hours from the next state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Why only " a few of the Points Series winners" getting a call - Matt did you get a call or are you still off the approved list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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