is this a legal uspsa shooting position

[2alpha]

After reading all this I come to the conclusion that I've seen many shooters using weak\strong hand techniques that should have earned them procedurals but didn't. A lot of shooters really bury that fist into their chest with their chin down and pull their shoulders around, that has to fit the definition of support as applied to the young shooters position.

We get into a lot of ambiguity when we bring up the p word and roots of the sport. How literal do you want to take the fact that one arm has been disabled? It could be so bad you couldn't even move it up to your chest, maybe he stuck it under his chin to stop it from falling off? It can get ludicrous.

I have an idea, lets just forget shooting with one hand unless you just choose to.

[Skydiver]

Sorry, I was away from the keyboard for a while to get a late dinner. Just got back, and I had to dig up a camera to take a picture of myself. Shooter was left handed. Here a front view of how his hand was positioned with me modelling:

Notice that palm of the hand is on the chest, but the fingers end up being on shoulder.

When this thread was last touched, it seemed to have come to the conclusion that the shoulder as part of the arm, and evidence used to come to the conclusion was how 10.2.8 was phrased to include the shoulder. Early in this thread, somebody convincingly (at least to me) argued that by applying pressure to the shoulder, more stability could be gained, and this stability constituted support.

As I said, personally, I consider the arm to end at the armpit. This is the reason for all the frowny faces I tacked on because I'd rather not have imposed the penalties.

[ima45dv8]

Sorry, I was away from the keyboard for a while to get a late dinner. Just got back, and I had to dig up a camera to take a picture of myself. Shooter was left handed. Here a front view of how his hand was positioned with me modelling:

Notice that palm of the hand is on the chest, but the fingers end up being on shoulder.

When this thread was last touched, it seemed to have come to the conclusion that the shoulder as part of the arm, and evidence used to come to the conclusion was how 10.2.8 was phrased to include the shoulder. Early in this thread, somebody convincingly (at least to me) argued that by applying pressure to the shoulder, more stability could be gained, and this stability constituted support.

As I said, personally, I consider the arm to end at the armpit. This is the reason for all the frowny faces I tacked on because I'd rather not have imposed the penalties.

If that picture represents your basis for assessing three penalties, just.....damn.

Day...um.

I hope you sleep well.

[Skydiver]

If that picture represents your basis for assessing three penalties, just.....damn.

Day...um.

I hope you sleep well.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Damn. That's why when I revived this thread, I started it with the word "Unfortunately". I wasn't happy about making the call. I apologized to the shooter about having to give the penalties right after RIC. At the moment, that was the best call I could make at the time based on what I'd learned from this thread and factoring in Troy's and other people's opinions expressed on the thread about touching the shoulder.

Maybe now, almost 2 years later, the we may decide that the OP's position is legal after all, and does not constitute as support.

Although, I was convinced originally, I've been doing some re-examining and have come to the opinion that the definition of the arm should end at the armpit.

[bbbean]

Sorry, I was away from the keyboard for a while to get a late dinner. Just got back, and I had to dig up a camera to take a picture of myself. Shooter was left handed. Here a front view of how his hand was positioned with me modelling:

I would not assess procedurals for that position, and would arbitrate if I used that position and was penalized.

BB

[sperman]

There is quite a big difference in the picture of the OP and the picture you posted. Pinning your fist between your head and shoulder isn't the same as your fingertips touching your shoulder. If you read back through the thread, Troy says something about "providing support" being the determining factor.

[works for ammo]

I thaught thats what USPSA was all about, pushing the rules to get an advantage...

This sounds like something they would hit you with in IDPA...

Rick

[Singlestack]

The pointer on my BS meter just broke.

[laz2011]

I think you are good.I don't see any thing wrong with it.

[Singlestack]

I think you are good.I don't see any thing wrong with it.

You must have missed the point. He put 3 procedurals on a shooter for having his hand like the posed picture.

[Skydiver]

I think you are good.I don't see any thing wrong with it.

You must have missed the point. He put 3 procedurals on a shooter for having his hand like the posed picture.

Yup, John is right.

By assigning the 3 procedurals, I didn't think that position was legal as I understood the interpretation here from 2 years ago.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Skydiver

[Steven Cline]

rolling your shoulder in on your hand wedges your hand between your shoulder and neck. Kinda a push pull isometric tension device. I would call that using the other hand to support the shooting arm. and violates rule 10.2.8.2.

Now before you argue it isnt touching the arm, let me ask, Why are you doing it ? You are doing it to steady your arm, in which case it is providing support. If it doesnt provide support why do it ?The rule says support not touch.

+1 you're supporting your shooting arm by supporting the shoulder joint. Not legal.

I would give procedurals. I believe its 10.2.8.2

I've gotta disagree. If you interpret 10.2.8.2 to include indirect support of the shooting arm, it can't be touching any part of the shooter's body or equipment. In that case, almost everyone shooting weak hand will get a proceedural. The common strong hand across the chest supports the chest, which supports the shoulder, which supports the arm.

The OP says it's to steady his head.

It looks legal to me.

Well stated, he's not supporting the arm so he's not supporting the arm. An arm is not a shoulder, or it would be called an arm, or maybe the arm should eb called a shoulder. Elbow isn't mentioned, is the elbow and arm or the arm an elbow, the writst is not the arm, it's the place between the arm and the hand and specifically mentioned but the elbow is not...

Does "from" mean to include or starting below?

I' not even certain it meets the definition of support- it wouldn't bear any weight as pictured.

eta: Read all the posts... my oh my. Why do I think this thread should have been left dead.

Maybe the real solution- going back to our practical roots and all- is to stipulate that when firing one-handed the unused hand and arm must hang limply down from the shoulder towards the ground. This would more directly similate the intention, if that is indeed the intention, of shooting with an injured and unusable arm. Putting the other hand in the pocket, across chest, grabbing the shirt or belt would all be means to increase stability contrary to the intention, if that is indeed the intention, of mandating one-handed shooting.

We could penalize the shooter when the RO sees what he believes is muscular contraction in the unused arm...

Sorry, I'm not calling support until I see the other hand grab the arm below the shoulder or is otherwise placed below the arm to support it.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Steven Cline