is this a legal uspsa shooting position

[juan]

i am a junior shooting uspsa and i have a problem, is this legal. some of the ROs say yes and some say no. check out the nonshooting hand location, it is not touching my arm but is rested on my shoulder, i cant find it in the rulebook, does anyone know?

[High Lord Gomer]

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor

will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm

from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload

or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one

procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase

stability while firing shots.

It looks like as long as you are not supporting your shooting arm with your other, you should be OK.

[Joe4d]

rolling your shoulder in on your hand wedges your hand between your shoulder and neck. Kinda a push pull isometric tension device. I would call that using the other hand to support the shooting arm. and violates rule 10.2.8.2.

Now before you argue it isnt touching the arm, let me ask, Why are you doing it ? You are doing it to steady your arm, in which case it is providing support. If it doesnt provide support why do it ?The rule says support not touch.

[Jake Di Vita]

The other question is why do you feel shooting like that gives you an advantage?

[juan]

The other question is why do you feel shooting like that gives you an advantage?

i think it gives me an advantage to rest and steady my head

[Jake Di Vita]

...Does your head sway uncontrollably if you don't?

[juan]

...Does your head sway uncontrollably if you don't?

i dont think thats rightfully the case, it does sway when my dad smacks me

[Jake Di Vita]

Hey man, I know of a very prominent shooter who's Dad used to slap him and throw rocks at him during practice in order to develop focus. He has a small flinch of his head before leaving every position lol.

[Steve J]

rolling your shoulder in on your hand wedges your hand between your shoulder and neck. Kinda a push pull isometric tension device. I would call that using the other hand to support the shooting arm. and violates rule 10.2.8.2.

Now before you argue it isnt touching the arm, let me ask, Why are you doing it ? You are doing it to steady your arm, in which case it is providing support. If it doesnt provide support why do it ?The rule says support not touch.

+1 you're supporting your shooting arm by supporting the shoulder joint. Not legal.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Steve J

[juan]

Hey man, I know of a very prominent shooter who's Dad used to slap him and throw rocks at him during practice in order to develop focus. He has a small flinch of his head before leaving every position lol.

so you know my dad. but be careful it wont be long until you take shooting lessons from me.lol.

[BSeevers]

I would give procedurals. I believe its 10.2.8.2

[Jake Di Vita]

Big words...better be willing to put the work in with them.

[juan]

Big words...better be willing to put the work in with them.

the thing with sports is that new players always step in, and you never know what will come of the new player you just know the old one will get replaced after a while,

remember that the big words are usally the most truthful

[juan]

Big words...better be willing to put the work in with them.

the thing with sports is that new players always step in, and you never know what will come of the new player you just know the old one will get replaced after a while,

remember that the big words are usally the most truthful

Thank you jake and everyone elses opinion, i appreciate it, for all your knowlage, ill just work on changing it

[mhs]

rolling your shoulder in on your hand wedges your hand between your shoulder and neck. Kinda a push pull isometric tension device. I would call that using the other hand to support the shooting arm. and violates rule 10.2.8.2.

Now before you argue it isnt touching the arm, let me ask, Why are you doing it ? You are doing it to steady your arm, in which case it is providing support. If it doesnt provide support why do it ?The rule says support not touch.

+1 you're supporting your shooting arm by supporting the shoulder joint. Not legal.

I would give procedurals. I believe its 10.2.8.2

I've gotta disagree. If you interpret 10.2.8.2 to include indirect support of the shooting arm, it can't be touching any part of the shooter's body or equipment. In that case, almost everyone shooting weak hand will get a proceedural. The common strong hand across the chest supports the chest, which supports the shoulder, which supports the arm.

The OP says it's to steady his head.

It looks legal to me.

[AlamoShooter]

Its no more than a Crutch / Trick. The sooner you learn to shoot -or "Do What needs to be done" The sooner you will develop into a better shooter, / Better Man,

A Strong arm starts near the spine behind the Pectoral muscle

[mhs]

Its no more than a Crutch / Trick. The sooner you learn to shoot -or "Do What needs to be done" The sooner you will develop into a better shooter, / Better Man,

A Strong arm starts near the spine behind the Pectoral muscle

If it's within the rules, and helps you shoot better, it's OK to use a "Crutch / Trick". If your intention is to score well, it may be intelligent to use it. Like mag wells, fiber optics, shooting as one foot leaves a box, etc.

That part of the "arm" near the spine is called the shoulder.

[smokshwn]

Its no more than a Crutch / Trick. The sooner you learn to shoot -or "Do What needs to be done" The sooner you will develop into a better shooter, / Better Man,

A Strong arm starts near the spine behind the Pectoral muscle

I don't see it as any more of a crutch than any other doo dad that we buy/use to improve performance (or more importantly our own perception of our performance).

Not so long ago that whole isosceles thing was viewed as silly but it proved to be the path to a better way.

I agree with you in the sense that not every method that a new shooter uses proves to be better than the already established methods, however occasionally it is exactly these innovations which become the new standards.

As to its legality, I don't see anything that violates 10.2.8.2

[Nik Habicht]

As to its legality, I don't see anything that violates 10.2.8.2

I'd have to see it in person --- and probably feel for the head of the humerus to make a definite call. If touching the head of the humerus, that probably falls under supporting the arm.....

[BSeevers]

rolling your shoulder in on your hand wedges your hand between your shoulder and neck. Kinda a push pull isometric tension device. I would call that using the other hand to support the shooting arm. and violates rule 10.2.8.2.

Now before you argue it isnt touching the arm, let me ask, Why are you doing it ? You are doing it to steady your arm, in which case it is providing support. If it doesnt provide support why do it ?The rule says support not touch.

+1 you're supporting your shooting arm by supporting the shoulder joint. Not legal.

I would give procedurals. I believe its 10.2.8.2

I've gotta disagree. If you interpret 10.2.8.2 to include indirect support of the shooting arm, it can't be touching any part of the shooter's body or equipment. In that case, almost everyone shooting weak hand will get a proceedural. The common strong hand across the chest supports the chest, which supports the shoulder, which supports the arm.

The OP says it's to steady his head.

It looks legal to me.

Its using the other hand as support. I didn't say anything about body or equipment.

I'll call procedurals and its only $100 to see if I'm wrong?

I also don't care if you say something is to steady your head. I see that that its support from the other hand. Arm being attached. That's the rule.

Yes its no advantage and looks to be a possible disadvantage to transistion time.

[ChuckS]

i am a junior shooting uspsa and i have a problem, is this legal. some of the ROs say yes and some say no. check out the nonshooting hand location, it is not touching my arm but is rested on my shoulder, i cant find it in the rulebook, does anyone know?

Juan,

Let me ask you this: what would you do if you had to hold something in your weak hand? You will encounter stages where you have to hold open a port or hang on to or carry something. It is probably best to learn how to shoot without that hand position than to panic when you can't use it or get one (or more!) procedural(s) from an RO who does not like it.

Welcome to the sport!

Chuck

[juan]

i am a junior shooting uspsa and i have a problem, is this legal. some of the ROs say yes and some say no. check out the nonshooting hand location, it is not touching my arm but is rested on my shoulder, i cant find it in the rulebook, does anyone know?

Juan,

Let me ask you this: what would you do if you had to hold something in your weak hand? You will encounter stages where you have to hold open a port or hang on to or carry something. It is probably best to learn how to shoot without that hand position than to panic when you can't use it or get one (or more!) procedural(s) from an RO who does not like it.

Welcome to the sport!

Chuck

That makes a lot of sense but i guess it is the same if you put your hand across your chest, right. so i guess it is different for everyony if you have to pick up somthing

[ChuckS]

i am a junior shooting uspsa and i have a problem, is this legal. some of the ROs say yes and some say no. check out the nonshooting hand location, it is not touching my arm but is rested on my shoulder, i cant find it in the rulebook, does anyone know?

Juan,

Let me ask you this: what would you do if you had to hold something in your weak hand? You will encounter stages where you have to hold open a port or hang on to or carry something. It is probably best to learn how to shoot without that hand position than to panic when you can't use it or get one (or more!) procedural(s) from an RO who does not like it.

Welcome to the sport!

Chuck

That makes a lot of sense but i guess it is the same if you put your hand across your chest, right. so i guess it is different for everyony if you have to pick up somthing

Nope, not the same. I put my weak hand on my chest to keep it from flopping around which would cause my strong arm to wiggle in kind. I can still keep the hand still if I am holding something. I really don't care where the hand is as long as it doesn't move. If your hand is occupied, you no longer have your "head steady".

Later,

Chuck

[juan]

i am a junior shooting uspsa and i have a problem, is this legal. some of the ROs say yes and some say no. check out the nonshooting hand location, it is not touching my arm but is rested on my shoulder, i cant find it in the rulebook, does anyone know?

Juan,

Let me ask you this: what would you do if you had to hold something in your weak hand? You will encounter stages where you have to hold open a port or hang on to or carry something. It is probably best to learn how to shoot without that hand position than to panic when you can't use it or get one (or more!) procedural(s) from an RO who does not like it.

Welcome to the sport!

Chuck

That makes a lot of sense but i guess it is the same if you put your hand across your chest, right. so i guess it is different for everyony if you have to pick up somthing

Nope, not the same. I put my weak hand on my chest to keep it from flopping around which would cause my strong arm to wiggle in kind. I can still keep the hand still if I am holding something. I really don't care where the hand is as long as it doesn't move. If your hand is occupied, you no longer have your "head steady".

Later,

Chuck

good point, you gave me an idea to dryfire with somthing in my nonshooting hand incase that comes up at a match..and the floppy head words were probably not the right words to use

[mhs]

Its using the other hand as support. I didn't say anything about body or equipment.

I also don't care if you say something is to steady your head. I see that that its support from the other hand. Arm being attached. That's the rule.

If you look at the picture it's pretty obvious that his hand is on his shoulder/neck, and is not touching his arm. If I were ROing him, I wouldn't feel justified in giving a proceedural for supporting his shoulder, since the relevant rule doesn't mention it.

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

If we're supposed to give proceedurals for the other hand touching body parts attached to the arm, I think you'll find that all body parts are attached to all others.

This guy seems to understand:

I'd have to see it in person --- and probably feel for the head of the humerus to make a definite call. If touching the head of the humerus, that probably falls under supporting the arm.....