Clue Brick

[Flexmoney]

{I hope nobody gets offended by this. I do mean to rattle the cage a bit. }

I think we have to go with what we have for this upcoming match and make adjustments as these issues arise at the match. If a competitor genuinely believes he has a gun that is legal, he or she should contact the NRA (Tom specifically in the first instance) and ASK!

WHO is TOM?

I happen to realize...since I've re-read these many pages...that Tom might be the guy to ask about rules stuff. But, even I don't know who Tom is.

I think it would be impossible to expect that...the new shooter ranks that are looking to be tapped here...those folks aren't likely to (know to) contact a "Tom." At best, they will read the rules and take their plinker/defensive/USPSA/IDPA gun back to completely stock...only to find out that their competitors are running them hog wild.

The other items you raise are valid and will most probably be addressed over the next year or so. But we need time to see this through.

I can see that is what is likely to happen. That seems to be where the current is flowing.

However, it is easy to sit back and say..."let's see." In the mean time, nothing will happen and no progress will be made.

Everybody will be a year older. (God willing.)

The thing is, it need not be that way. NRA could simple go with established rules from USPSA Production, IDPA Stock Service Pistol, or IPSC Production. Better yet, they could cherry pick the best of those rules. (And, if they needed help doing that...just ask.)

NRA Production doesn't need to make the same mistakes and go through the same growing pains that the other organizations had to do.

[Flexmoney]

The shooters here...that may be a great representation of the possible pool of new Production shooters for AP...they have spoke as to what they want. They have done so time and time and time again.

They want clarity on the rules. So, far, nothing but vagueness has been put forth.

"KISS" and "wait and see"...that ain't cutting it!

[Flexmoney]

And, here is the biggest realization that is not registering at all...

Production guns...are...the...market.

I won't say they have taken over USPSA, IPSC and IDPA, but Production guns certainly stand toe-to-toe with the other equipment divisions...even considering all the "gear-queers" that are out there.

None of the NRA pistol sports are all that popular. There can be lots of factors to that. One thing is certain...

Not everybody has a built wad-cutter gun...a winged red-dot gun with a mover base...or a rib mounted PPC gun. But, just about everybody has a Glock, Beretta, M&P, CZ, XD, Sig or revolver.

With the gun buying that went on after the last Presidential election, and the prize table support that is happening this year...

Production could breath new life into Action Pistol.

- The fruit is ripe for the plucking.

- Don't miss the boat/train.

- Strike while the iron is hot.

- Fish or cut bait.

- Make hay while the sun shines.

None of us are getting any younger.

[Flexmoney]

Now...how to make it work?

I know there is probably some red-tape involved and that you can't go to the well too often with rule changes (before somebody throws a rat into the well).

I might suggest that you get the 2011 draft of the Production rules ready to go now. Then, use that as the basis to make any calls and answer any questions that come up on the 2010 rules.

If asked*, I suspect that some folks here would kick in and could have working draft ready to go in a week or two (even over the holidays).

* The "asking" part is important...to me anyway...because I hate to do volunteer work that will just get tossed into the 'round file'.

[DWFAN]

The shooters here...that may be a great representation of the possible pool of new Production shooters for AP...they have spoke as to what they want. They have done so time and time and time again.

They want clarity on the rules. So, far, nothing but vagueness has been put forth.

"KISS" and "wait and see"...that ain't cutting it!

Ding, Ding, Ding. Winner, Winner.

I agree with what you are saying so frankly and hope no one takes offense. As a new shooter to all shooting sports, the last thing I want to do is show up to a local match and look like a dummy for breaking rules and not having a clue. I know some guys probably wouldnt care and would explain things, but I see it as my responsibility to understand the rules before I play. If the rules arent clear, its not comforting.

Being a little more clear (by spelling it out, or cherry picking different rules or whatever they want) would go a LONG way to make a new sport more welcoming to new shooters. Like it is now, I see only the option of taking the rules literally and hope for the best. IMHO, you're going to have the "purest" of production guys competing at a disadvantage with bone stock guns against production guys(gals) with not stock guns because the rules can be interpreted different ways.

Edited December 23, 2009 by DWFAN

[Alan550]

{I hope nobody gets offended by this. I do mean to rattle the cage a bit. }

I think we have to go with what we have for this upcoming match and make adjustments as these issues arise at the match. If a competitor genuinely believes he has a gun that is legal, he or she should contact the NRA (Tom specifically in the first instance) and ASK!

WHO is TOM?

I happen to realize...since I've re-read these many pages...that Tom might be the guy to ask about rules stuff. But, even I don't know who Tom is.

I think it would be impossible to expect that...the new shooter ranks that are looking to be tapped here...those folks aren't likely to (know to) contact a "Tom." At best, they will read the rules and take their plinker/defensive/USPSA/IDPA gun back to completely stock...only to find out that their competitors are running them hog wild.

The other items you raise are valid and will most probably be addressed over the next year or so. But we need time to see this through.

I can see that is what is likely to happen. That seems to be where the current is flowing.

However, it is easy to sit back and say..."let's see." In the mean time, nothing will happen and no progress will be made.

Everybody will be a year older. (God willing.)

The thing is, it need not be that way. NRA could simple go with established rules from USPSA Production, IDPA Stock Service Pistol, or IPSC Production. Better yet, they could cherry pick the best of those rules. (And, if they needed help doing that...just ask.)

NRA Production doesn't need to make the same mistakes and go through the same growing pains that the other organizations had to do.

The "Tom" we're referring to is Tom Hughes (sp), Pistol Competition Manager for the NRA. He just got promoted to that position from being the Action Pistol Manager. Now he's pretty much the go-to guy for any NRA pistol competition, from Action Pistol to the National Championship matches at Camp Perry. He's on here as NRAActionPistol and has responded to many questions about the Cup rules and schedule info.

It's too late to address the rules questions for the 2010 season and Cup. As I mentioned in another post, the Action Pistol Rules committee meets in the Fall, submits their recommendations to the NRA Rules Committee and they take the proposed changes to the NRA BOD in January to be approved. Changes are usually based on requests from shooters, some of which come from the shooter's meeting at the Cup, others which come from letters sent to the AP Rules Committee at NRA Headquarters before the Fall meeting of that committee.

Alan~^~

[Toolguy]

Maybe it's not too late to make a couple more tweaks since it isn't January yet and the rules haven't been officially finalized.

Thanks Flex - I think you speak for many.

[Flexmoney]

"it's too late"

I think my post #4 of this thread cover that angle.

[Alan550]

"it's too late"

I think my post #4 of this thread cover that angle.

I love being taken out of context! Here's what I wrote in its entirety.....the WHOLE sentence : "It's too late to address the rules questions for the 2010 season and Cup."

So in response, your #4 post covered the changes for 2011, correct! But for the 2010 Cup, by now it is too late.

Getting the info to the AP Rules committee now would mean the suggestions would sit around for 9 months before they even meet next year.....great chance of being misplaced. Get input from the shooters over the next 6 months or so to include input from the Cup, and you'd have a more comprehensive list to send for proposed changes. Acting this early for a preliminary list is a great idea, but needs to be put off for the final submission to NRA in order to have everything included that will be needed to get them finalized.

Alan~^~

[Chuck Anderson]

Okay, so let's start getting that input now. There are several active and potential shooters on here talking about rule changes. Let's use the forum to aid in that process. What are the upsides and downsides to a change in the trigger pull rule, what about the holster rule. Let's come up with some decent changes and get them to the NRA. I know nothing will change for 2010, I'm okay with that. But lets not wait until August and then find out it's too late then too.

[Alan550]

Okay, so let's start getting that input now. There are several active and potential shooters on here talking about rule changes. Let's use the forum to aid in that process. What are the upsides and downsides to a change in the trigger pull rule, what about the holster rule. Let's come up with some decent changes and get them to the NRA. I know nothing will change for 2010, I'm okay with that. But lets not wait until August and then find out it's too late then too.

I agree wholeheartedly Chuck. Although I shoot Open, I understand the confusion in the newly established Production class. Using this forum as a centralized "clearing site" for the changes that shooters want is a great idea. Then if several people send letters with either the same or very similar suggestions, that should do the trick. I've learned the hard way with NRA that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease"! I've seen suggestions from one shooter make it into the rule book, and another suggestion that was proposed by several people get ignored. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the process!

Alan~^~

[NRAActionPistol]

{I hope nobody gets offended by this. I do mean to rattle the cage a bit. }NRA could simple go with established rules from USPSA Production, IDPA Stock Service Pistol, or IPSC Production. Better yet, they could cherry pick the best of those rules. (And, if they needed help doing that...just ask.)

NRA Production doesn't need to make the same mistakes and go through the same growing pains that the other organizations had to do.

I personally find this funny!

I do not recall you or anyone else suggesting that we start a Production Division, it's real easy to sit in the Monday Morning Quarter Back spot! I wish I could do that, but I (TOM) am not that kind of guy!

The bottom line is, if it's broke...fix it! NRA AP needed to be fixed, we are working on it, we need people to support it, and run matches in OH and anywhere else there is a want and or need to run them.

Nothing good happens over night, is NRA AP perfect? NO! Will it ever be perfect? NO! We are in the business of running matches, we all have (2) two choices: Be a part of it...or not.

Bottom line: Be a part of making it better, or leave it to those who care to make it better!

In the last few years, anyone on here could contact anyone at the NRA, and suggest changes to NRA AP, there are many people on here that have done that. We are where we are because of opinions and suggestions from Competitors, Sponsors & the Founders of all Pistol Championships.

Merry Christmas!

TOM...

[gm iprod]

Sending suggestions in does work.

The other way is to turn up with a new gun and get the rules built around that, it work once and once only.

Thanks for all the work Tom, and it is Christmas already down here. 12.30am and under the tree has been filled in my house.

[Chuck Anderson]

{I hope nobody gets offended by this. I do mean to rattle the cage a bit. }NRA could simple go with established rules from USPSA Production, IDPA Stock Service Pistol, or IPSC Production. Better yet, they could cherry pick the best of those rules. (And, if they needed help doing that...just ask.)

NRA Production doesn't need to make the same mistakes and go through the same growing pains that the other organizations had to do.

I personally find this funny!

I do not recall you or anyone else suggesting that we start a Production Division, it's real easy to sit in the Monday Morning Quarter Back spot! I wish I could do that, but I (TOM) am not that kind of guy!

The bottom line is, if it's broke...fix it! NRA AP needed to be fixed, we are working on it, we need people to support it, and run matches in OH and anywhere else there is a want and or need to run them.

Nothing good happens over night, is NRA AP perfect? NO! Will it ever be perfect? NO! We are in the business of running matches, we all have (2) two choices: Be a part of it...or not.

Bottom line: Be a part of making it better, or leave it to those who care to make it better!

In the last few years, anyone on here could contact anyone at the NRA, and suggest changes to NRA AP, there are many people on here that have done that. We are where we are because of opinions and suggestions from Competitors, Sponsors & the Founders of all Pistol Championships.

Merry Christmas!

TOM...

I would really hope this post, funny and all, wasn't a slam on Kyle (Flex). I know for a fact they run AP matches at his club in OH. Because he showed me the setup and helped me towards gettting our club off the ground in Oregon. He's also the one who set up the Bianchi Cup forum here so that we can trade ideas. He is trying to help. If you can't see that maybe take a moment and read what he said. I haven't seen anyone get on this forum and disparage anyone who shoots AP or runs matches or runs the discipline for the NRA. The fact that we didn't suggest Production for AP doesn't mean we don't want it to thrive and flourish now. It's more likely we didn't care about AP until there was somewhere for us to shoot. Now that NRA has Production there is a spot to run wtihout specialized equipment and that attracts me to it. Will I be happy shooting just Production 5 years down the road? Nope, I'll probably have a dedicated Open gun, but to start there is no way I'm spending that kind of money without getting my feet wet.

Kyle and I, as well as several others have been working wtih USPSA and IPSC Production rules for years. They've been through many iterations and a lot of the same mistakes (and yes they are mistakes) in the NRA rules have been sorted out in various other shooting disciplines throughout the years. Take what you need, throw out the rest. You don't need to be exactly the same as anyone else's sport but there are certain things that we've dealt with for years (it seems like decades) and can help with. NRA has always taken a Not Invented Here stance, both in it's LE training, and competiton program. There is a very simple way to get the Production rules sorted out quickly. Ask someone who knows and has shot Production.

[Flexmoney]

The shooters here...

They want clarity on the rules.

Ding, Ding, Ding. Winner, Winner.

Clue brick.

Thanks Flex - I think you speak for many.

Clue brick.

Okay, so let's start getting that input now.

Clue brick.

... it's real easy to sit in the Monday Morning Quarter Back spot! I wish I could do that, but I (TOM) am not that kind of guy!

Hey, if it makes you feel better to think of me like that, then OK. I'm pretty sure you are the first person to suggest that I sit on my butt with regards to the shooting sports though.

My posts may be the 'kicking and screaming" approach to ambassadorship, but I have a pretty clear and unattached view of what is being said by those that aren't already in sport of AP. (Isn't that who you are trying to reach?)

They are practically BEGGING for rules clarity with regard to Production guns.

Not only have I pointed this out, but I have offered up at least one viable solution. One that has little down side.

I'm not the enemy. My only motivation is to help out the shooters.

[motorcycle_dan]

I'm the new guy and have no business suggesting rule changes. I only want to know exactly what my limitations are for shooting in production class. I intend to shoot at the Cup for the first time this Spring.

I don't have a holster or a belt yet for this competition. I intend to by a CR-Speed belt and Blade Tech DOH. If I find out after I show up that is not authorized, I'd be miffed to the point of wanting a refund. I would like more of a detailed description of production class holster. Down to name brand would be fine for me. Brand X model X is legal, Brand Y model Y is NOT. I understand the spirit of the rule but not how it will be interpreted. Do all "race holsters" retain by clamp on the trigger guard? If yes, simply forbid this. Not sure about retention requirements and would like some clarification before I spend money.

I do feel that other revolver shooters will likely have those super slick DA only action jobs. I intend to compete with my stock GP100. I will have to have the Single action notch either removed or made deeper/steeper angle. DA mode is probably about 12lb. (my gauge only goes to 8) Unmodified the single action trigger is just under 3lb. Still has the tape on it from the DR match at Camp Perry this past summer.

I would have liked more specific rules. Such as separate trigger pull for striker fired guns. Specific DA and SA trigger weight for other guns, CZ, Beretta etc. And Revolvers I would like to see a minimum DA trigger pull. Go get a Python or something slick from the box and weigh the DA pull. Since competitors Don't normally use SA mode leave that portion of the rules out.

I LOVE the concept of production class. But would like the rules to be sensible and fair to all. I'd really like to shoot my XD pistol but I've installed adjustable sights

[gm iprod]

Motorcycle Dan.

As far as I can see, CR Speed, Safariland 010, 011, 012, 013, 002 and various modifications to these, Ghost, and anything anyone thinks would be cool for an open gun is likely to be out. My own Hoppner Schuemann CW5 is out.

Blade Tech, Blackhawk etc etc and anything that covers the front half or more of the handgun is likely in. Open front out, even if it covers enough of the firearm.

But if it is attached to the thigh (Military type) out.

A list would be good, but right now it just aint there. Look at some holsters online, get pictures. Pick something you like and have and send the picture to Tom, he will have to abide by his decision in May. He will, because he is a straight up guy. So straight up his hair fell behind

The best way to go would be to follow the intent, if you think you would be comforatble to cart the gun around in it all day then that is your start point. A full concealed carry holster would be a little too far.

[DWFAN]

I think a Min Trigger for any gun would be fine. 2.5lbs. If they want to allow SA notches to be removed, then they should say so. If they want revolvers to shoot first shot DA then if the competitor wants to shoot SA on subsequent shots that would be fine also. That way no one has a SA trigger under 2.5lbs. (I dont know what stock revolver trigger SA's are, but my 625-8 went well above 2.5lbs SA when I tested it last night)

[Joe4d]

The NRA might want to start by getting a websight designer, The Action pistol websight basically looks like they could care less if you shoot or not or for people that already know all about it I just read part of the rules and it is a very wordy without actually saying anything, I clicked on Calender and guess what ? no dates, I clicked on "Getting started" and it states "If there is a club in your area .............." Well hey , If I knew that I wouldnt be clicking on the websight links now would I, You know that would probably be a real good place for a link to a list of locations that actually shoot the game.

I looked at Bianchi cup years ago and based on the total lack of information and basically getting a general impression that it was some kinda international pro sport I never gave it a second thought.

[gm iprod]

Tom is slowly addressing all the above issues. The NRA has not looked after AP for some time.

Sponsorship has exploded in the last two or three years, all thanks to Tom and his crew getting out there and really pushing, not bad considering the fiscal constraints facing many companies. Numbers are up and looking to be up again, so it is all coming together, slowly. One thing leads into the next.

But he not only looks after AP, he has other responsibilities as well.

But for information on the matches talk to the local clubs that run AP or someone nearby. Shoot a few matches with what you have, don't panic about being bang on with the gear for right now. Just learn the match.

Alan550 and Actionpistolero will help anyone out there. Kevin in particular was on the AP committee so has some insight into the problems facing Tom.

Good example was our recent Nationals. We had very few guys who shoot AP Production Class, so for OUR match we followed IPSC Prod class for guns and gear. We did not get many, but we got some. All new guys, who had barely shot 10 matches between the lot of them. They had a blast.

[Joe4d]

"But for information on the matches talk to the local clubs that run AP or someone nearby."

Again that bit of advice doesnt help if there is no information on where these mystery clubs are located.

[gm iprod]

To do what flex has done.

Alan550 and Actionpistolero will help anyone out there. Kevin in particular was on the AP committee so has some insight into the problems facing Tom.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97921

Please read all the words.

They are only a click away.

Edited December 25, 2009 by gm iprod

[Kimberkid]

I think most AP shooters would agree that what should be done is to put all divisions back to the rule book from 2000 or so, and add production equipment rules that mirror USPSA. Let everyone go prone wherever they want, dont worry about trigger wieghts, dont worry about grip safeties. Just grabd your piece, jock up, and shoot. I never understood why that was so unfair and complicated.

Best match ever and i hope some day it will be again.

[Action Pistolero]

"But for information on the matches talk to the local clubs that run AP or someone nearby."

Again that bit of advice doesnt help if there is no information on where these mystery clubs are located.

Joe,

I would say that the closest match for you would be the one's in Bedford, VA. Alan550 posts the Bedford Rifle and Revolver Club's schedule on the NRA's webpage. I'm not sure where it is on their page. Hopefully he will chime in with a link.

If you want any more info you have come to the right place. Just ask.

[Alan550]

We don't have our AP matches listed there yet as I haven't filed the paperwork with NRA. Basically, we shoot on the 2nd Saturday from March-June and Sept-Nov. The part of NRA's site where they'll be listed is the National Registry of Events in the Clubs & Associations section. I'm amazed that no other clubs list their matches on there! We list our weekly matches as well as the AP and CAS shoots that we have. Should have the AP schedule finalized by early Jan. for the whole year.

Alan~^~