Clue Brick

[Action Pistolero]

I don't have a holster or a belt yet for this competition. I intend to by a CR-Speed belt and Blade Tech DOH. If I find out after I show up that is not authorized, I'd be miffed to the point of wanting a refund. I would like more of a detailed description of production class holster. Down to name brand would be fine for me. Brand X model X is legal, Brand Y model Y is NOT. I understand the spirit of the rule but not how it will be interpreted. Do all "race holsters" retain by clamp on the trigger guard? If yes, simply forbid this. Not sure about retention requirements and would like some clarification before I spend money.

I do feel that other revolver shooters will likely have those super slick DA only action jobs. I intend to compete with my stock GP100. I will have to have the Single action notch either removed or made deeper/steeper angle. DA mode is probably about 12lb. (my gauge only goes to 8) Unmodified the single action trigger is just under 3lb. Still has the tape on it from the DR match at Camp Perry this past summer.

I would have liked more specific rules. Such as separate trigger pull for striker fired guns. Specific DA and SA trigger weight for other guns, CZ, Beretta etc. And Revolvers I would like to see a minimum DA trigger pull. Go get a Python or something slick from the box and weigh the DA pull. Since competitors Don't normally use SA mode leave that portion of the rules out.

I LOVE the concept of production class. But would like the rules to be sensible and fair to all. I'd really like to shoot my XD pistol but I've installed adjustable sights

Dan,

We pretty much covered the holster question last year. Get the DOH. A race holster is defined as having an open front. Not all race holsters retain the gun by the trigger guard. The 002 is a prime example.

I have it on good authority that NRA was told by someone at USPSA that their Prod rules were fine and to leave them alone. Apparently USPSA's rules have been a headache to manage.

Get your belt, DOH holster, Ruger, ammo and shoot the courses of fire. Just because someone has a revolver with a "slicked" trigger doesn't mean they can shoot well. Preparedness is the key. Get used to the time limits. A 5 is better than no shot on the target. In this game the plates can do you in quickly. Practice, practice, practice. Subtract 50 points from your best practice score and you'll be in the ballpark of what your score will be at Bianchi.

With a big chunk of the money in Prod going to the first time Cup classified shooter most of us will not be eligible for it. That doesn't mean that the competition won't be fierce. I know a guy that's going and my money is on him. He will be shooting a Glock.

[Chuck Anderson]

[i have it on good authority that NRA was told by someone at USPSA that their Prod rules were fine and to leave them alone. Apparently USPSA's rules have been a headache to manage.

That's really unfortunate to hear. And frankly quite short sighted. USPSA was hard to manage precisely because they started out brief and looking a lot like the NRA AP rules. If that's the advice NRA got and followed then they did a disservice to shooters because this doesn't solve anything. It's the equivalent to sticking your head in the sand. USPSA rules were a pain in the butt, IPSC is a pain in the butt. Both sets of rules have now been vetted for over a decade now though. With thousands of shooters going over the rules with fine toothed combs looking for advantage. Both accomplish different things. USPSA Production allows for modifications to the guns, but doesn't require them to be competetive. IPSC requires essentially factory guns (and runs into lots of trouble trying to catch illegal mods). I'm not thrilled with either set of rules, but if NRA were to cherry pick the best from each they'd be a lot further down the road to consistency than where they are now.

[Action Pistolero]

I broke out my USPSA rulebook (Blue) and found a few similarities.

Item 20 Holster restrictions: Suitable for everyday use. "Race gun" type holster prohibited. They then go on to specify how much of the gun must be covered by the holster.

Special conditions:

Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

The differences:

Item 6- Min. trigger pull none. A/P 3.5lb in any mode.

Item 7- Max. size. Must fit in a specific sized box. A/P- no physical size requirement. Barrel length 6" for Rev. and 5.35" for Autos.

Item 10- Max. distance of handgun and mags from inner side of belt. Handgun and Mags 2". A/P none.

Item 12- Restriction on position of holster and other equipment. Rule uses a diagram to explain this one. A/P none.

Item 18- Max. weight. 2 ounces over weight listed on approved pistol list. A/P none.

Item 19- Handgun specific approval for division. Yes. A/P none.

Item 21- Authorized mods.

Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function. A/P same.

Sights- trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or fiber optic. A/P same.

Slide- refinishing. Milling of slide- only as required to insert sights. A/P No.

After-market slides and barrels- provided they are the same length, contour and caliber as original factory standard. A/P no After- market slides and barrels. Must be factory parts the same calber and contour that the pistol originally came with from the factory.

Grips- Internal beveling, checkering, stippling and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. Shows a diagram where this can be applied. A/P no restrictions on where it can be appied.

Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods) A/P springs and guide rods okay but safeties and slide stops must be factory parts.

It looks to me that NRA was trying to keep the measuring to a minimum (ie, gun size, weight, holster position). They are not going to make an approved gun or holster list.

What you have to understand about NRA is that they don't have the staff or the expertise to determine what gun can be used or which holster can't. From the way it looks the manfacturer of a hangun must submit paperwork to USPSA to get a gun on the approved list. A/P doesn't get the participation that a manufacturer would want to bother with it.

[gm iprod]

What you have to understand about NRA is that they don't have the staff or the expertise to determine what gun can be used or which holster can't. From the way it looks the manfacturer of a hangun must submit paperwork to USPSA to get a gun on the approved list. A/P doesn't get the participation that a manufacturer would want to bother with it.

This is the whole crux of the matter. This is only the second time we have shot Production at the Bianchi Cup. Whichever way they went with the rules it was a no win situation. We have a base point, we can now go one with that. We / the NRA are still learning. If the rules are changed every 5 minutes we can guarantee attendance will go down. It has happened before.

USPSA / IPSC have had how many years to get their rules to where they are? 2000 or 2001? What did they start with? I bet a few guys started to push the envelope a little in sneaking stuff past inexperienced staff.

Down here we have very few guys who regularly shoot AP and would be keen on shooting PRoduction, BUT we have IPSC shooters galore that wanted to try, without getting their arse kicked. So at our recent Nationals we decided in the interim too use the IPSC Production rules as our AP Production rules "FOR THAT NATIONALS" to encourage more shooters, my shop put up $400 in prizes. It worked, we got 6 guys turn up that had never shot a full match before that day, two had never even tried AP at any level. OK we now have to tweak the rules to suit our situation.

They self checked their guns to ensure that all were following IPSC PRod rules, the regular AP range staff don't know the Production rules yet, we relied on their expertise.

As Kevin said showed if you turned up with a firearm that met the USPSA / IPSC production rules, plus our trigger weight and holster requirements you are sorted. Again if you are not sure, ask the Tom Huges at the NRA if this particular piece of equipment will be legal. He can find out.

What would a holster cost $100, trigger check and maybe tweak $100. You will go through about $1500+ worth of travel and ammo between now and the Cup if you are getting your self together.

[czrunner]

I shot the match for the first time ever in production with a SP-01 CZ last year. I am thinking of coming back shooting a revolver in production.

Any one know if the SW PC 627 4" barrel 357 MAG. - 8 times (with a 3.75lb single action trigger pull) be legal. It has the stock sights/grips from the factory also.

Thanks

What you have to understand about NRA is that they don't have the staff or the expertise to determine what gun can be used or which holster can't. From the way it looks the manfacturer of a hangun must submit paperwork to USPSA to get a gun on the approved list. A/P doesn't get the participation that a manufacturer would want to bother with it.

This is the whole crux of the matter. This is only the second time we have shot Production at the Bianchi Cup. Whichever way they went with the rules it was a no win situation. We have a base point, we can now go one with that. We / the NRA are still learning. If the rules are changed every 5 minutes we can guarantee attendance will go down. It has happened before.

USPSA / IPSC have had how many years to get their rules to where they are? 2000 or 2001? What did they start with? I bet a few guys started to push the envelope a little in sneaking stuff past inexperienced staff.

Down here we have very few guys who regularly shoot AP and would be keen on shooting PRoduction, BUT we have IPSC shooters galore that wanted to try, without getting their arse kicked. So at our recent Nationals we decided in the interim too use the IPSC Production rules as our AP Production rules "FOR THAT NATIONALS" to encourage more shooters, my shop put up $400 in prizes. It worked, we got 6 guys turn up that had never shot a full match before that day, two had never even tried AP at any level. OK we now have to tweak the rules to suit our situation.

They self checked their guns to ensure that all were following IPSC PRod rules, the regular AP range staff don't know the Production rules yet, we relied on their expertise.

As Kevin said showed if you turned up with a firearm that met the USPSA / IPSC production rules, plus our trigger weight and holster requirements you are sorted. Again if you are not sure, ask the Tom Huges at the NRA if this particular piece of equipment will be legal. He can find out.

What would a holster cost $100, trigger check and maybe tweak $100. You will go through about $1500+ worth of travel and ammo between now and the Cup if you are getting your self together.

Edited January 18, 2010 by czrunner

[Alan550]

If it's a PC gun, you'll be in Metallic class, not Production. PC is considered a "custom shop" and not permitted by current Prod rules.

Alan~^~

[Ahab]

Alan, a question about that (and a problem with the rules as they're written) - the 627 PC 8-Times is a Performance Center gun yes, but it's also a "catalog item available to the general public" or whatever the rule states for Production division.

I guess I should just call Tom, but this is the kind of stuff that is giving guys like me headaches about the new division.

[gm iprod]

Ahab,

We have had this with three divisions since I started shooting AP.

1. Back in the late 90's with "Stock" there were so many interpretations of "stock" that it finally all blew apart in 2003 when Robbie L caught them out with an interpretation change the week before the match. He looked a little pissed, but won out in the end. Caused all sorts of problems for lots of people.

2. Then again in 2005 over the Metallic sight rules, in the end they rejigged a bunch of stupid stuff as some people were pushing a bunch of ideas that were never thought of and that also blew up.

Now 3. Production, I suspect we are heading for a bit of a showdown as there is certainly some serious interest, which is great and the numbers are looking good. I think getting hold of Tom to clarify your revovler is wise. Wholst they use the term Performance Center the damn things are straight of the assembly line by the truck load. They certainly make 1000units as per the two I have in my shop at this time. I think a list of approved guns is going to be the way of the future, but they introduce new guns faster than the Government can suck money from your wallet. So some flexibility is requied. BUT common sense from the shooters would be a good idea as well.

So be sensible and go with the flow for this match. Then when all things are as clear as mud, go for it.

[Griz]

BUT common sense from the shooters would be a good idea as well.

The problem with that is that "common sense" refers to an opinion that is not backed up by any data or facts. With vague rules, everyone will have a different opinion. Well written rules will be clear and leave no room for opinions or interpretation.

[Ahab]

So be sensible and go with the flow for this match. Then when all things are as clear as mud, go for it.

Yeah, I'm definitely playing it safe this year. Instead of the 627 .38 Super PC gun, I'm shooting my 627 Pro Series. I lose an inch of barrel and sight radius to the Pro Series gun, but it's also guaranteed to be considered "Production" and keep me safe from the wrath of the rulekeepers.

The sad thing about all of this is I really like Bianchi Cup/Action Pistol. I shot it for the first time last year and was immediately hooked; it's frustrating that if I wanted to bring a newbie in with me I'd have to explain all these arcane rulings to him or her...or just tell them to get a Glock 34.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Ahab

[Griz]

The sad thing about all of this is I really like Bianchi Cup/Action Pistol. I shot it for the first time last year and was immediately hooked; it's frustrating that if I wanted to bring a newbie in with me I'd have to explain all these arcane rulings to him or her...or just tell them to get a Glock 34.

Or just shoot what you have in Metallic or Open class. You don't have to shoot Production... The only reason it's an issue at the Bianchi Cup is that the NRA seems to be throwing a lot of money at Production so no one want to shoot Metallic.

I guarantee that if someone shows up at our club in Bedford with less than optimal gear, we won't turn them away.

[gm iprod]

I guarantee that if someone shows up at our club in Bedford with less than optimal gear, we won't turn them away.

Thats the right attitude.

I think the NRA is encouraging Production (and rightly so) so that it can attract mainstream sponsors to the match. Very few fully option Open or Metallic guns come out of Ruger, Remington, etc etc etc. But they have the money and are willing to put it into our match, IF and only IF, they see a benefit.