Is this an athletic sport? Or, I like physical challenges.

[Nik Habicht]

I agree with making minor changes to COF’s to make them fair to the vast majority of shooters.

Good --- but what's minor?

Such as not taking in account for left hand shooters and they end up with a lot more difficult shots around things verses a right handed shooter.

Clever stage designers already look at this --- and consult left-handed shooters during set-up for anything really challenging. They might want a position to be hard, but they still want it to be shootable....

The same could be said for extremely high ports.

High ports are addressed in the rulebook --- you're either required to lower them or to provide a step....

Low ports are fine, everyone can get lower to shoot.

Not everyone (and only up to a point). I've shot with folks with medical issues affecting their ability to go prone. I've also shot a stage at the Nationals, where from a prone position I could only visualize the Charlie-Delta zone below the A-zone on the three targets that could only be engaged from there. That port/position was so low that it effectively penalized me and others of my stature/flexibility.....

I like the physical part of the game --- otherwise I'd be shooting bullseye. It's got to be doable though --- which I define as giving everyone an equal shot at being able to line up the sights on the A-zone of each target from somewhere in the free-fire zone. Choose to make a target only available from one position --- then you've got to work hard to make sure that it presents the same view for all competitors, from the shortest to the tallest; the skinniest to the roundest.....

Last Sundays match at Old Bridge was a pretty good example of how to build a physical, yet equitable match. It featured a Texas Star from a Cooper Tunnel on one stage, another where there were choices between doing a lot of running and having closer shots or doing less movement and having longer shots; a few run and hit positions stages, and a 120 point standards stage (classifier). A pretty good mix for January....

[CHA-LEE]

Nik Habicht> I think that you are beating a dead horse on the obviously incorrect stage setups that shouldn’t even happen in the first place. If you have to go prone and can only see the C/D zone of a given target, that is a poor and unsafe stage design. That has nothing to do with the athleticism of shooting a stage.

The only stage that I have shot which would give a truly athletic shooter an advantage was a COF that had 4 different shooting positions separated by 30 – 50 yards between them. So basically you shot a section then ran flat out as had as you could for multiple seconds to the next shooting position then did it again for the next shooting position three different times. Even at that, I was able to haul my fat ass through the COF just as fast as the rail thin athletic guys. Its all about how much you want it. If you want to be competitive at the top levels of competition then you have to earn it. If your knees are blown out, or your back is ruined and you can’t run then you work with what you have.

I don’t see motor cross events making smaller and easier jumps so the older beat up riders can “Compete” against the young guys. They shouldn’t either. How is that situation any different than USPSA?

The facts are that you DON’T have to be in much shape at all to do very well in USPSA pistol shooting events. The athleticism needed to perform at peak levels for the very minimal time a stage run requires is not much at all. If stage runs took multiple minutes to complete, then that would be a different story. Look at some of the 3 Gun stages where you have multi minute stages with lots of running then precise rifle shots after running. That demands a lot more athleticism then USPSA pistol shooting.

If you are so out of shape that you can’t navigate a COF without being hindered by your lack of physical capability then who’s fault is that? It’s not the Stage Designers, Match Director or anyone else’s fault. Its yours. If you don’t like being winded after a stage run, or your belly is so big that it gets in the way of you moving through a COF then it is your responsibility to change, not everyone else. Any competitive sport demands peak performance, not limiting performance to your dedication/commitment level. If you want to be competitive, then make changes to yourself to be competitive.

[Chills1994]

See, what Nik has been keeping a secret for this entire thread is that he actually used to be Spetsnaz at one time:

[Jim Norman]

OK, Who got hold of the stage diagrams for next months Old Bridge match at Old Bridge? Those aren't supposed to be published stages. Now we'll have to re-design them and make them tough, no more pussy-footing around!

Let's see, 35 foot rock wall, rappel, low crawl in cold mud and head shots at 100 yards. nah, too easy. Check back later.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

Nik Habicht> I think that you are beating a dead horse on the obviously incorrect stage setups that shouldn’t even happen in the first place. If you have to go prone and can only see the C/D zone of a given target, that is a poor and unsafe stage design. That has nothing to do with the athleticism of shooting a stage.

Really? You seemed to suggest that it's up to the shooters to get in better shape, and that no port is too low (Implication: Shooters may be too big, too inflexible, too old, but we should certainly only look to having the shooters improve.) I may have misread that......

The only stage that I have shot which would give a truly athletic shooter an advantage was a COF that had 4 different shooting positions separated by 30 – 50 yards between them. So basically you shot a section then ran flat out as had as you could for multiple seconds to the next shooting position then did it again for the next shooting position three different times.

So we've got a stage that depending on the target arrays to be engaged may have violated 1.1.2:

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

But I'm sure we just need to send all competitors to the gym....

Even at that, I was able to haul my fat ass through the COF just as fast as the rail thin athletic guys. Its all about how much you want it. If you want to be competitive at the top levels of competition then you have to earn it. If your knees are blown out, or your back is ruined and you can’t run then you work with what you have.

And that's my whole point --- if people have options, then stage design works. If competitors have the option of running 30-50 yards and hosing or staying (relatively) put and taking longer shots, then you've got a cool stage, and are well on your way to having a cool match....

I don’t see motor cross events making smaller and easier jumps so the older beat up riders can “Compete” against the young guys. They shouldn’t either. How is that situation any different than USPSA?

What does motor cross or rugby or knitting have to do with USPSA? Who cares what they do?

The facts are that you DON’T have to be in much shape at all to do very well in USPSA pistol shooting events. The athleticism needed to perform at peak levels for the very minimal time a stage run requires is not much at all. If stage runs took multiple minutes to complete, then that would be a different story. Look at some of the 3 Gun stages where you have multi minute stages with lots of running then precise rifle shots after running. That demands a lot more athleticism then USPSA pistol shooting.

Being in shape certainly helps, and that's as it should be....

If you are so out of shape that you can’t navigate a COF without being hindered by your lack of physical capability then who’s fault is that? It’s not the Stage Designers, Match Director or anyone else’s fault. Its yours. If you don’t like being winded after a stage run, or your belly is so big that it gets in the way of you moving through a COF then it is your responsibility to change, not everyone else. Any competitive sport demands peak performance, not limiting performance to your dedication/commitment level. If you want to be competitive, then make changes to yourself to be competitive.

That's part of it --- but part of it also gets back to 1.1.2, which exists for a reason: It's a shooting sport.....

I get that you've accomplished a lot in your short tenure in the game, and that you've got opinions from the competitor's side. This board however is read by a diverse group of people, from competitors to range officers to match directors, section coordinators, area directors. Most of the folks who read the board don't now (or won't in the future) fall neatly into just one of those categories.

Those who are actively working to grow the sport may have a different take on this topic....

Balance. Knowing your audience. Catering to that audience --- and nudging it along, so that when someone goes to a bigger match, they're not shocked. (In an ideal world you get a club like Old Bridge, where Dave Marques and Jim Norman have achieved balance between pushing the competitors to improve, and allowing those with different priorities to have a good time playing....)

You can get there by whacking people over the head (and probably with a much smaller pool of folks playing the game) or you can nudge 'em along. Certainly there's progress in the game --- runs keep getting faster, the folks at the top are continually resetting the bar, there's actually discussion now about nutrition, hydration, exercise, and planning for improved physical performance. That's a good thing....

[Vlad]

 

Let's see, 35 foot rock wall, rappel, low crawl in cold mud and head shots at 100 yards. nah, too easy. Check back later.

Don't fear, people have been challenging me to bring a new version of the 20ft weak hand head shots between noshoots stages. I think I will

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to point out that in my short tenure in shooting USPSA pistol matches, I have NEVER seen a COF that a competitor could not complete from a physical stand point. That to me is a very important point to express. The stages are always designed in a fashion that allows all types of physical capability shooters (barring specific disabilities such as wheel chair bound shooters) to COMPLETE the COF. They may not like the tasks of bending down for a low port, leaning around a wall, or going prone for a shooting position, but its all doable as proven by everyone completing the stages.

Sure the shooters that are in better shape will be able to navigate the COF with more vigor and agility. But that’s how it should be. The COF’s shouldn’t be changed to eliminate reasonable physical challenges because a small group of shooters don’t like to kneel, go prone, or bend down for ports. Most of the time these physically challenging stage conditions are limited to one occurrence for the whole match, if that. So really, what is there to whine about? Other than whining for the sake of whining?

[Chills1994]

Nik wrote:

...knitting have to do with USPSA?

There are more knitting shows on TV.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of contests or judging trials where knitted items get ranked first, second, third. And that gets televised too.

Sorry, Nik, but you did kinda ask.

[sslav]

 

Let's see, 35 foot rock wall, rappel, low crawl in cold mud and head shots at 100 yards. nah, too easy. Check back later.

Don't fear, people have been challenging me to bring a new version of the 20ft weak hand head shots between noshoots stages. I think I will

As long as its not 20 yard head shots.

[sslav]

There are more knitting shows on TV.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of contests or judging trials where knitted items get ranked first, second, third. And that gets televised too.

Competitive knitting is the next Hold'em Poker of the sports entertainment. Soon to be followed by the watching the paint dry team relays.

[Vlad]

Don't fear, people have been challenging me to bring a new version of the 20ft weak hand head shots between noshoots stages. I think I will

As long as its not 20 yard head shots.

People have greatly exaggerated the distance on that stage, I don't think the pit is 20 yards deep.

[Nik Habicht]

Don't fear, people have been challenging me to bring a new version of the 20ft weak hand head shots between noshoots stages. I think I will

As long as its not 20 yard head shots.

People have greatly exaggerated the distance on that stage, I don't think the pit is 20 yards deep.

Don't make me bring out the tape measure..... :P