Need some help with sight focus

[Corey]

I have tried searching for some help to this question and could not come up with exactly what I was looking for, and I figured there may be other new guys with the same problem I am finding myself with.

I understand the idea of the front sight focus and have been driving myself hard at the range to tell myself "front post front post" on every shot to get it engrained. My issue, as I'm sure a lot of people have, is that when I focus hard on the front sight, obviously there are two blurry targets in the background. When I switch to target focus, I have two sets of sights in the foreground.

Id like to be able to shoot both eyes open because I think it'd be easier for transitions and general visualizations. How can I get past this "2 target problem" I'm seeing. Is it a time thing or is there a trade secret I don't know about yet??

New guy appreciates your help!!

C-

[CocoBolo]

Corey - Do you know which eye is dominant? Have you had an eye exam in the last 2 years? You might be astigmatic.

I shot one eyed and was very accurate with just one. The problem is with one you bump into obsticales etc so I spent months learning how to bring the gun up in front of the left eye (dominant) and now shoot with both eyes open

I lack credentials but I will refer to http://grayguns.com/zen-and-the-art-of-hitting-stuff/

My method when moving to a new target is eyes go to target then gun follows when I see what I need to see I break the shot which with Iron sights is the sights. If it is a 50yd head shot that is a level III so it takes some time and focus, if it is a 15 yd that is a level II difficulty so less time and less focus. Up close just see front sight no rear and much less time. Difficulty of the shot dictates the amount of time and focus required to see what I need to see.

Now to make the hit, its more about trigger control! Also another foreign word Follow Thru. As you get faster you find yourself shooting at one popper while looking at the next one, well it doesn't work, you have to wait for the hammer to fall and the bullet to exit the barrel.

[Bongo Boy]

I just typed a LONG post then fat-fingered the keyboard and lost it--if I double post please excuse.

I'm not an eye doctor, but if you're really seeing a double image (at any distance) I think that's an issue you should see a doctor about. Make sure we understand the difference between a fuzzy or blurred image and two distinct, relatively clear images. The difference is real important, I think.

Astigmatism is a defect of all real single lenses, whether or not the symptoms are noticeable or a problem or not. When an eye doctor says 'you've got some astigmatism' the only real significance is if that astigmatism is causing a noticeable problem. Anyway, if a lens were perfect, then all of the light that enters it would focus to the same spot, regardless of where the light entered the lens. Real lenses have imperfections (in shape, for example) and that can mean the light gets focused in different locations depending on where it enters the lens. As I understand it, at least, the result can be a blurry image--but images will be blurry regardless of whether they're near or far. It's a condition that's alway there and doesn't depend on where the eye is focused.

In binocular systems (your eyes, binoculars), the two independent lens systems (left eye, right eye) have to be aligned properly to prevent two distinct images. I don't know what causes double images in the human eye system to happen, but I'm gonna bet there are multiple reasons it occurs. I'd get it checked out.

Now, if it's a blurry image and not a double image you're talking about, you just can't have both the sights and the target in focus at the same time--unless of course the sights and the target are at the same distance from your eye. A real challenge for me is far-sightedness--in which case I have to wear correction to ever have the front sight in focus, but yet don't really want the correction to see the target well. You have to make a choice, or wear bifocal glasses, as I do. The 'reading' prescription (actually it's set up specifically to focus on the sights when the gun is presented) is at the top of the lens, and the uncorrected or slightly-corrected far-vision prescription is at the bottom 2/3 of the lens. Kind of cumbersome and hard to get used to, but it's working.

Again, if it's a real, no-kidding double image you're seeing at any distance, see a no-kidding eye doctor as soon as you can.

[rvb]

dryfire! dryfire! dryfire!

I remember going through this (struggling! through this) when I first learned to shoot both eyes open...

Through repitition in dryfire (especially working on draws) you will build your index so that as you find the target, bring the gun on target, and shift your focus back to the sights, everything will naturally be in alignment. At the same time, even if you don't consciously figure it out, your brain will realize which of the two targets and which of the two sights is the 'correct' one. Be very sure you are switching your focus from target to sight very precisely. It's a good time to work on speeding up how fast you can focus... during dry draws switch your eyes back and forth to confirm you are correctly lined up... this will speed up your vision and help ingrain that sight picture...

Being aware enough to realize what you are seeing is a great first step.

-rvb

ps. I'm sure if you search on "index" or "Natural point of aim" or "NPA" you will find gobs of reading. Right now you are unsure of your alignment because it's not ingrained, and you are having to consciously figure out where to point the gun.

Edited December 10, 2009 by rvb

[juan]

I think most shooters have struggled with this.

dry fire make sure its not a blank wall use a target.

I think right now bolth eyes are fighting for dominance.

dry fire and it will work its way out. this is not a fast fix.

on my son for a while I put a piece of clear tape on the lens of his glasses of his non shooting eye.

[Jadeslade]

+1 to the two posters above. One of the targets disappears eventually (the one that is not in alignment) if you practice enough. You are training your eyes.

[Jack T]

Humans are predatory animals, with eyes on the front of their face and PERFECT binocular vision. In other words we are not born with a dominant eye, it is usually developed before the age of five by ones surroundings. NOTE: This is medical fact, not my opinion.

Many of us do not have a dominant eye, I do not. When you do the little test by putting your fingers up in a triangle, I can shift my head and use either eye comfortably. It is just a matter of which way I am accustomed to shifting my head (left/right of center) to look at it. Try it, you will see what I mean.

Cory you will have to isolate your right eye (right handed) by shifting your head slightly to the left to the point that the right eye becomes in line with the sights or slightly squinting your left eye. If you try and keep the sights dead center of both eyes, you are goint to see two targets. There is nothing wrong with closing/squinting one eye if you have to for the long/precise shots. I slightly squint instead of closing it because it does put strain on the open focusing eye.

I shoot an open gun looking straight ahead because I am looking at the target, but have to shift my head just a little to the left to pick up the sights on irons.

Find some of the U Tube videos of J. Miculek shooting the revolver. Many of them are close ups and show his head/eyes in relationship to the gun and you will get a better idea of this relationship.

Lots of dry fire.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Jack T

[rvb]

isolate your right eye (right handed) by shifting your head slightly to the left to the point that the right eye becomes in line with the sights

Jack, agree it's also a matter of developing dominance, and the dryfire helps ingrain that. But I would recommend moving the gun into alignment with the eye/target vs moving the eye to the gun. The gun does not have to be held perfectly on the centerline of the body. I'm not sure how it's different with a dot vs irons? I only see the dot w/ my right eye and look past the scope w/ my left. eye, sight, target all in alignment. The only difference is the focal plane is always at the target...

-rvb

[Jack T]

Yeah, I think that is what D. Sevigney told me once. He supposedly is left eye dominant and he said just move the gun over, or words to that effect. It doesn't work for me, I have to do a slight head shift or I will have double vision.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Jack T

[Alan550]

I'm not an eye doctor, but if you're really seeing a double image (at any distance) I think that's an issue you should see a doctor about. Make sure we understand the difference between a fuzzy or blurred image and two distinct, relatively clear images. The difference is real important, I think.

Astigmatism is a defect of all real single lenses, whether or not the symptoms are noticeable or a problem or not. When an eye doctor says 'you've got some astigmatism' the only real significance is if that astigmatism is causing a noticeable problem. Anyway, if a lens were perfect, then all of the light that enters it would focus to the same spot, regardless of where the light entered the lens. Real lenses have imperfections (in shape, for example) and that can mean the light gets focused in different locations depending on where it enters the lens. As I understand it, at least, the result can be a blurry image--but images will be blurry regardless of whether they're near or far. It's a condition that's alway there and doesn't depend on where the eye is focused.

In binocular systems (your eyes, binoculars), the two independent lens systems (left eye, right eye) have to be aligned properly to prevent two distinct images. I don't know what causes double images in the human eye system to happen, but I'm gonna bet there are multiple reasons it occurs. I'd get it checked out.

Again, if it's a real, no-kidding double image you're seeing at any distance, see a no-kidding eye doctor as soon as you can.

I'm not an eye doctor either but will an Optician's opinion count? The double image the OP mentioned is a natural phenomenon when focused at a particular distance. If you focus on a near object, objects in the distance will appear as "double-image" and vice versa, provided both eyes are open.

My solution is to put scotch tape over the shooting glass lens on the non-dominant eye side which allows light to come in, but doesn't completely block your peripheral vision. That's important since if you close one eye, the other pupil will dilate trying to compensate for the loss of light, which will blur the vision in the open eye to a point that's unacceptable for accurate sight pictures.

This is particularly important when shooting from prone or any other position that requires you to use an area of a prescription lens other than the center. Image displacement will occur in that instance because of the prescription being different in the outer portion of the lenses from what's in the center that you use most of the time.

For non-prescription lenses it's less important, but still can be a problem, as non-prescription shooting glasses are far from optically perfect most of the time. Rudy and other top name companies make the closest to perfect lenses available in non-prescription glasses, but the cheaper stuff ..........you get what you pay for.

Alan~^~

Edited December 10, 2009 by Alan550

[Jack T]

Alan,

You NRA Actions guys are pretty tough. It's gotta hurt like hell putting that tape on your eye!!

Plus, it's pretty hard to run arround at full speed on an IPSC/USPSA course of fire with only one eye (tape on the non-dominant eye). Unless thats all you have and then I guess that would be your dominant eye (?) so this wouldn't really matter.

JT

Edited December 10, 2009 by Jack T

[ddpenn]

Curing the Double vision issue.

If you are a right handed, right eye dominant shooter, there are not many posts to help you correct this problem. I can tell you what worked for me, and try to explain my sight picture.

Relax your eyes and allow them to go slightly out of focus. To better explain this, try to focus as if you were looking at one of those 3- dimensional photos you see at the mall, you know the ones that have a hidden picture of a schooner or a dolphin.

My sight picture has the target slightly out of focus, front sight in focus but not as sharply as other members here describe. I think the ideal focus is one just good enough to distinguish spatially where the front sight is on the target. I see through my right hand and the rear sight as if it were superimposed on the target.

I think the doubling comes from focusing too hard on the front sight which makes you go cross eyed resulting in a doubled target. Try to think of it this way, you are not focusing on the front sight, just looking at the entire picture in your field of vision, the gun and your hand just happen to be there.

It took me about 600 rounds to figure out my proper sight picture. Once I started using this focus my groups at 12 yards dropped from 3 inches down to 1 inch and change, and I am now ready to move the targets back. This sight picture and focus also cured my slight left shot push, I believe I was getting confused about which double of the target to shoot. Also, I can now call my shots accurately. When the target doubles it is nearly impossible to figure out where on the target the front sight is at moment of recoil.

What is the cause of double vision? I have no idea, but I would be interested in knowing if any other shooters that double up have one eye with slightly better vision over the other. I am 20/20 in the left and and slightly worse than 20/20 in the right but do not wear glasses.

Hope this helps

Edited December 10, 2009 by ddpenn

[lugnut]

I too have struggled with this. I am left eye dominant (strong) and right handed. I agree with Sevigny - don't tilt your head- but adjust your arms- we're only talking a couple inches.

However... I find it very difficult using both eyes when shooting fast with lots of transitions. Slow fire or target focus- no problems. fortunately I only tend to squint/close my nondominant eye while engaging targets and can quickly open while moving to other positions without shooting. I also find it much harder to use both eyes indoors or in lower light conditions. I've done drills with both eyes open and with one eye and my times are better with one eye.

I'm not sure how much effort to place in shooting with both eyes open... I took a class with Matt Burkett and asked him what I should do... he said if you shoot with one eye... just make sure you know you are going to it and do it consistently. He didn't seem to think it was a big issue.

Edited December 10, 2009 by lugnut

[Corey]

Sorry i could not respond to a couple of the questions earlier, but i just got off work. I have not been to an eye dr in quite some time but the last time I went, I was JUST above 20/20. the slightest astigmatism(sp) in left eye, right eye perfect. Im right handed and right eye dominant.

As for what i see, Alan hit it dead on. with both eyes open when i focus on something at a short range (arm length-the sight) the objects in the distance appear to double and get fuzzy. I see what I think I should be seeing, a crisp sharp edge of the front sight post on top of a blurry silloutte target, my problem is there appears to be 2 of them. I tried the tape over the left eye thing and that may do the trick for me, just dont know how silly im gonna look at my first match with my shooting glasses taped up, lol.

Maybe the two-eyes-open thing isnt for me, idk. ill have to try both ways in the next few range trips and see what works better. I just think having them open will be able to save me a step or two (close eye, shoot, shoot, open eye, find next target, close eye, repeat).

[Corey]

Humans are predatory animals, with eyes on the front of their face and PERFECT binocular vision. In other words we are not born with a dominant eye, it is usually developed before the age of five by ones surroundings. NOTE: This is medical fact, not my opinion.

Many of us do not have a dominant eye, I do not. When you do the little test by putting your fingers up in a triangle, I can shift my head and use either eye comfortably. It is just a matter of which way I am accustomed to shifting my head (left/right of center) to look at it. Try it, you will see what I mean.

Cory you will have to isolate your right eye (right handed) by shifting your head slightly to the left to the point that the right eye becomes in line with the sights or slightly squinting your left eye. If you try and keep the sights dead center of both eyes, you are goint to see two targets. There is nothing wrong with closing/squinting one eye if you have to for the long/precise shots. I slightly squint instead of closing it because it does put strain on the open focusing eye.

I shoot an open gun looking straight ahead because I am looking at the target, but have to shift my head just a little to the left to pick up the sights on irons.

Find some of the U Tube videos of J. Miculek shooting the revolver. Many of them are close ups and show his head/eyes in relationship to the gun and you will get a better idea of this relationship.

Lots of dry fire.

just reread all the replies and this stuck out. this is EXACTLY my problem. At a super young age, i was taught the triangle trick to establish my "dominant eye" when i do this little drill, it naturally comes to my right eye 100% of the time, but as you said, I can shift my head and use either eye with comfort.

I may need to try shifting the sights, bc now that i think about it, i think i am trying to keep the gun directly in the middle of my face and that could be an issue.

[Jadeslade]

Sorry i could not respond to a couple of the questions earlier, but i just got off work. I have not been to an eye dr in quite some time but the last time I went, I was JUST above 20/20. the slightest astigmatism(sp) in left eye, right eye perfect. Im right handed and right eye dominant.

As for what i see, Alan hit it dead on. with both eyes open when i focus on something at a short range (arm length-the sight) the objects in the distance appear to double and get fuzzy. I see what I think I should be seeing, a crisp sharp edge of the front sight post on top of a blurry silloutte target, my problem is there appears to be 2 of them. I tried the tape over the left eye thing and that may do the trick for me, just dont know how silly im gonna look at my first match with my shooting glasses taped up, lol.

Maybe the two-eyes-open thing isnt for me, idk. ill have to try both ways in the next few range trips and see what works better. I just think having them open will be able to save me a step or two (close eye, shoot, shoot, open eye, find next target, close eye, repeat).

It takes a while for your brain to process out the second target-the eye still sees it-you just process it out. To keep both eyes open is important for most shooting and for total visual awareness.

[Bongo Boy]

Wow...this is all new to me. Never heard of anyone having this problem before, regardless of eye dominance (which I certainly do have). Sounds like yet another challenge!

[Corey]

Wow...this is all new to me. Never heard of anyone having this problem before, regardless of eye dominance (which I certainly do have). Sounds like yet another challenge!

Really??!? haha, I've always had this 'problem' and I've never thought of it as an issue until recently with my dive into this sport. I think it something that everyone has had to deal with, just trying to figure out my way around it.

to explain a different way....look at a light fixture across the room, close one eye and give the light fixture a thumbs up, putting ur thumb over the light. now switch eyes. see how your thumb "appears to move" b.c than angle from the other eye is different from eye to thumb to fixture. thats my problem when both are open, i see both thumbs at the same time when focused at the longer range item. when focus is brought to the thumb, a single thumb is in focux but two fuzzy light fixtures are present in the background (again bc of the angles from each eye and across the thumb).

hope that clears it up and maybe even helps the rest of you give me some insight and help in my progress.

[ddpenn]

The thumb thing describes it perfectly.

[Matt Cheely]

Something else to consider that's not so mainstream.

I use a target focus even with iron sights...

[Corey]

Something else to consider that's not so mainstream.

I use a target focus even with iron sights...

whoa whoa whoa!!! that sounds like silly talk to me, lol. j/k

I need to experiment with a few dif things. the only problem i forsee with me right now with that is i would have one nice target but two sets of sights at the end of my arms. granted it would be easy to know which "gun" to use, but the problem would remain i think.

[Loves2Shoot]

Wow...this is all new to me. Never heard of anyone having this problem before, regardless of eye dominance (which I certainly do have). Sounds like yet another challenge!

Really??!? haha, I've always had this 'problem' and I've never thought of it as an issue until recently with my dive into this sport. I think it something that everyone has had to deal with, just trying to figure out my way around it.

to explain a different way....look at a light fixture across the room, close one eye and give the light fixture a thumbs up, putting ur thumb over the light. now switch eyes. see how your thumb "appears to move" b.c than angle from the other eye is different from eye to thumb to fixture. thats my problem when both are open, i see both thumbs at the same time when focused at the longer range item. when focus is brought to the thumb, a single thumb is in focux but two fuzzy light fixtures are present in the background (again bc of the angles from each eye and across the thumb).

hope that clears it up and maybe even helps the rest of you give me some insight and help in my progress.

You are not alone.

I've tried everything most folks have suggested, I just don't have a real dominant eye, and the off eye picks up the side of the blade (my theory is it has more surface area thus that eye gets the image input to my brain) I can force seeing a single sight picture, but not under the stresses of a match. I've tried every trick, spent too much time and $$$ with the eye doctor and different glasses, and now I just frost a spot on my left eye that blocks the blade of the front sight so I can't focus there with the off eye.

I find I shoot more accurately and faster with only one clear sight picture and don't feel I lose anything blocking out the sight from my off eye.

Jacks description of binocular vision describes very well how I see the world, and once you understand that you may or not be able to change it, I think helps, because you can move on and accept it and find some thing that works for you. People who can see one sight picture may not be able to understand that for some folks it just doesn't work, and not because they aren't willing to work at it.

Good luck!

Edited December 11, 2009 by Loves2Shoot

[Bongo Boy]

I just 'tested' my spouse and 26 year-old daughter, and they both report exactly the same issue...double image. Never knew they had this symptom, but along with it I detect very little to no eye dominance with either of them. Pardon the sick pun, but what an eye-opener for me. Thanks for the suggestions re: how to work with this.

My solution is to put scotch tape over the shooting glass lens on the non-dominant eye side which allows light to come in, but doesn't completely block your peripheral vision. That's important since if you close one eye, the other pupil will dilate trying to compensate for the loss of light, which will blur the vision in the open eye to a point that's unacceptable for accurate sight pictures. Alan~^~

I just put frosty scotch tape on my daughter's ESS glasses and she said, "Wow! It's like a Christmas miracle!". She has quite the sense of humor, but was being pretty sincere on this one. Edited December 22, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[Corey]

ive got a piece of the frosty looking scotch tape, about 1/2" long and as wide as well, a piece of regular scotch tape, over the left eye piece of my shooting glasses and i suppose that will do until i get my eyes formally trained. maybe I'll just be weird new guy at the matches with tape on his glasses.

[benos]

ive got a piece of the frosty looking scotch tape, about 1/2" long and as wide as well, a piece of regular scotch tape, over the left eye piece of my shooting glasses and i suppose that will do until i get my eyes formally trained. maybe I'll just be weird new guy at the matches with tape on his glasses.

There may be more out there than you think. I was out there with the tape for many years.

be