00bullitt Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I'm just curious as to the huge benefits of the FFP scope as opposed to the RFP for precision shooting. I know their purpose. Just curious as to the actual benefits of one. I know in a low power optic that several mfg's use a FFP and for the life of me cant logically figure out why. The same kinda goes for an FFP precision scope. It seems backwards to me. At low power the reticle is smaller than it needs to be and then at max power....it seems way larger than it need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The one benefit I am aware of, in my very limited experience, is you can use your reticle to range at any power setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 The one benefit I am aware of, in my very limited experience, is you can use your reticle to range at any power setting. But is that worth having a bigger reticle at higher magnification? I know of several Marine and Army snipers that range with their RFP scopes at all ranges of their available magnification. Its just an extra step in their math. Those guys seem to dislike a FFP scope for the same reasons I do but yet the FFP seems to be more requested by the military. I'm just looking for more insight into something I might be missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The one benefit I am aware of, in my very limited experience, is you can use your reticle to range at any power setting. But is that worth having a bigger reticle at higher magnification? I know of several Marine and Army snipers that range with their RFP scopes at all ranges of their available magnification. Its just an extra step in their math. Those guys seem to dislike a FFP scope for the same reasons I do but yet the FFP seems to be more requested by the military. I'm just looking for more insight into something I might be missing. You are out of my pay grade now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Conley Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Todd FFP is much easier to dope with. I have played with a Horus H25 reticle which is FFP and add the Horus software, it's almost too easy at long range. No need for clicking dials and adjusting. Mostly first shot hit as long as the wind is called right and the homework is done on the trigger. It's my understanding that with a RFP BDC reticle it only works if you have it set on it's highest power. The scope that would be the berries is a Nightforce with a H25 reticle. You can order one and I think they only charge about $100 extra for the H25. Chris C. If I'm incoherent, sorry I've got the flu...... Edited November 30, 2009 by Chris Conley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIO Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) If you really are interested this site below has more info then you can possible need. From what i have seen FFP Mil/Mil adjustments seem to be the ticket. If you get a fixed 10x it does not come into play. SWFA just released a real nice upgraded super sniper you may want to check out www.snipershide.com Edited November 30, 2009 by GIO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Like stated above, the #1 biggest advantage is being able to use mil-dots, or whatever is etched in your reticle, to range a targets of known size. If you are off a touch power wise on a RFP power scope, like a NF, it can screw with your estimated range. Thread drift... When ordering a FFP scope, consider your targets and the reticle. I have a S&B 5-25 with a P4 reticle. At 25X, the crosshair is pretty friggin wide. I also have two other 5-25s. One with a P4F and the other with a Premier GenII. It is much easier to see targets with at the higher powers. Unless it is dark out and you are using the illumination, then a thicker crosshair helps. I have smacked a few coyotes at night recently and the thicker illuminated crosshair helped when tracking a moving target. Eventually all my S&Bs will get sent back for P4F reticles. I had a Loopy 6.5-20 FFP with a H25 reticle in it. The quality of the reticle etching left a lot to be desired. The concept is great, it just needs better etching and support from Horus. My Short Dot reticle is all but invisible at the bottom end. But at 1X, I am using the dot anyway. All in all, if you are using a rangefinder to range a target and clicking/dialing, FFP is pretty much a waste. I have a 12-50 *RFP* on order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 The one benefit I am aware of, in my very limited experience, is you can use your reticle to range at any power setting. But is that worth having a bigger reticle at higher magnification? I know of several Marine and Army snipers that range with their RFP scopes at all ranges of their available magnification. Its just an extra step in their math. Those guys seem to dislike a FFP scope for the same reasons I do but yet the FFP seems to be more requested by the military. I'm just looking for more insight into something I might be missing. Actually the reticle doesn't get bigger. It stays proportional in size to the target so it covers the same amount of the target whether it's on 3 or 25 power. Also the Marines use a FFP S&B scope. You can range on different powers with a SFP scope but it makes life much more difficult on the shooter and takes more time. Much easier to use a FFP scope. My main sport is sniper matches and I have been using FFP scopes for years now and love them. Much better than a SFP scope. Now I am using the Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1 in a mil knob and MLR reticle configuration. Love the set up. Most everyone I know and shoot with uses FFP optics because of the ease of use. Ranging is usually the smallest reason to have a FFP. Using it for hold overs/unders and wind holds is much more useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 What does "RFP" stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I believe they mean rear focal plane which is also known as SFP or second focal plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 +1 on the ease of use. In PR games it's common practice to allow the shooters beside you to spot your hits/misses... and vice versa (you return the favor.) For example if I miss a wind call and the spotters call out "one mil right". They are usually saying that my shot hit 1 mil right of the target. With FFP the reticle subtends the same no matter what the power the scope is on. So if the call is "one mil right" I can immediately place the hashmark for 1 mil to the right of the crosshair over the target and send it. Simple. If I had an SFP scope I can only do the above at a specified power setting. But that power setting may not be ideal for the shot --- I need to transition to another target or the position is shaky (so a lower power setting would be better), etc. So if I was at a different power than to what the scope is set at to measure correctly... when the guy says "one mil right" I would have to either dial or use Kentucky windage. If I wanted to use the reticle I would have to think OK I am at X power. At X power it will be at Y factor. So Y x One mil is Z. I then use the Z hashmark as the aiming point and then send it. Yuck. Same thing with hold-overs. With an FFP scope hold overs will be consistent. With an SFP scope you have to think more if it isn't on that specified power setting. With the matches I've been to you are given a fixed time to engage (multiple) targets. In some cases I just don't have enough time to dial, so I have to do holds. And in some stages they won't let you dial (as they want to test your hold over skillz). Hold overs/unders are required. All in all FFP is just simpler (and faster). Around here the majority of the better shooters are running FFP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 RS, where do you shoot matches at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Thanks RS.....the info I was looking for. What FFP reticles seem to be the most popular? I prefer to work in MOA rather than MILs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 RS, where do you shoot matches at? California, Arizona and Nevada. I think we were in the same squad at the '09 Tactics PRC. The Tactics PRC, Sin City PRC (Las Vegas), So Cal PRC, and TBRC(Norcal PRC) sort of have the same flow and have found them to be similar in some aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 What FFP reticles seem to be the most popular? I prefer to work in MOA rather than MILs I don't think there is a dominant reticle. The FFP scopes that I see most on the line are US Optics (by far), Premier Reticles, and S&B. They all have a different reticles. But I would hazard that the majority were running mil-based reticles. At a recent match the two shooters to the right of me were in mils, the shooter to the left of me was MOA. The three shooters to the left of the MOA shooter were using mils. I was running my MOA SN3. So taking that as a sampling 5 out of 7 were in mils. It probably varies from region to region. I'd recommend you find out what the majority of the shooters are running in your area and get that type of system (Mil vs. MOA). It's a pain to have to convert between the two. In general I'd get a Mil reticle and Mil turrets. I wouldn't get a standard mil reticle. I would recommend having at least 1/2 mil hashmarks --- Leupold TMR, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) RS, where do you shoot matches at? California, Arizona and Nevada. I think we were in the same squad at the '09 Tactics PRC. The Tactics PRC, Sin City PRC (Las Vegas), So Cal PRC, and TBRC(Norcal PRC) sort of have the same flow and have found them to be similar in some aspects. That's cool. I was just wondering if we crossed paths and it seems we did. I'll be out in AZ for the 2010 TPRC and also out at NorCal so we'll be shooting together again. Say hey in Feb when we're at TPRC. I'll have the Hornady shirt on again and the Team Blaster hat. LOL I agree with RS about running a mil based reticle. More shooters use them than MOA but with USO and NF offering good MOA based reticles they are becoming more popular. I tried running an MOA reticle a few years ago and just couldn't get used to it. I am much more comfortable with a mil based reticle. In a mil based reticle I look for one with 1/2 mil marks as it helps for use in holds and ranging when needed. I like the NF MLR and Premier Reticles Gen II reticles. Have used both in matches and find them to work very well. I used the Gen II in my S&B and the MLR as I mentioned in my NF F1. Edited December 2, 2009 by Rob01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I just wanted to pop in this thread and welcome Rob and thank him for his input. For the guys here who don't frequent Snipershide and maybe discounted the post count.....don't be fooled. He is a top notch guy and full of solid information. He also has an incredibly helpful attitude on the forums. It will be great having him here to offer his knowledge. Now after the drift, back to the discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Thanks Smok. Nice to see a familiar face over here. I stopped over for 3 Gun info as I'm starting to shoot some matches now and found the PR section recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Anybody else wonder why FFP costs so much more than SFP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Not all are. There are some less expensive FFP like the Falcon Menace and Super Snipers but for the most part the higher end FFP will cost a few hundred more when compared to SFP by the same company. Not 100% sure why but my guess would be a combination between different internals, R&D for new scopes and supply and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 There are some less expensive FFP like the Falcon Menace and Super Snipers... The Falcon Menace 4-14x seems to be getting some good mention on the net, but their web site is down and no one in the US seems to be selling them. And I have a hard time equating that much scope with a $450 price. Then there is the SWFA SS 3-9x FFP which is also getting mentioned quite a bit. A price of $600 seems more in line with other 3-9x mid-range scopes but still a far cry from the $1000++ scopes I see on the top of most lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 One of the reasons the FFP scopes cost more is the more expensive ones are illuminated and the illumination in them is a real bear. When working with NF on the F1 stuff, I was told it would cost $30,000.00 estimated in R&D on the illumination alone. It was one of the prohibiting factors for them wanting to jump into the FFP market in the first place. The way a FFP reticle works is no more difficult engineering wise than a SFP, just getting subtensions exactly right are critical. I am American, my mind thinks in inches. NRA, the largest sanctioning body of formal competition also measures their targets in MOA. It makes things easier for me. I know a 1 MOA target at 1000 yards is roughly 10" (it's actually 10.47"). Ranging for me is just easier thinking in inches. I don't have to do any conversions and none of the math requires a calculator for me, I can do it all in my head. Another benefit I find in the MOA reticles like the NP-R1 offered by NF is that the graduations are broken down finer than a reticle in 1/2 mil subtensions. The R1 reticle is almost the equivalent of a mil based reticle broken down into 1/4 mils. You tell me, is it easier to measure a board with a tape measure in 1/2" measurements or one in 1/4" measurements? I'm just saying... +10000000 to Rob Ormond. He is a wealth of knowledge and a GREAT all around guy. Always pleasant and always willing to help out. It doesn't hurt that he's an excellent shooter as well and he actually practices what he preaches vs. so many that do their shooting from a keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I am American, my mind thinks in inches. I like MOA reticles for this reason too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Thanks KGunz. Maybe we'll run into each other again somewhere although it won't be ASC LOL What graduation you use isn't as important as if you can use it properly. I am American and I use mils in my F1s. Works well for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Rob you and the crew should come down and shoot The Practical Marksman Challenge with us at the end of February! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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