Ryan Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 So... unhappy with my stock trigger in my para p16 limited, I naturally wanted something better. I ended up ordering the ultra match 5 piece kit from C&S and installed it today. The install went smooth although it took me awhile as that was the first time I stripped a 1911 that far. Anyway, during the function check, everything seemed ok until I put the slide back on. The disconnector and all safeties work as they are supposed to, however, the slide will not cock the hammer to full cock during reciprocation. The hammer will immediately follow to half cock. This does not change regardless of holding the trigger or letting it be. I can manually, thumb cock the hammer to full cock and the trigger pull is great. But I'm dead in the water if the slide can not cock the hammer on its own. It seems as if the hammer is not pushed down by the slide far enough to engage to full cock (its really close to where it catches when thumb-cocked) but a fraction shy. Anyone have any suggestions, ideas, or advice? I'm hoping for a quick fix.... (probably unrealistic). Could my hammer pin hole be drilled slightly too low? I already sent a dupe message to C&S and will plan on calling them tomorrow afternoon. My hopes for having a decent trigger in time for the "toys for tots" match in central FL on the 28th is looking bleak at the moment. Thanks, Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 even though a kit may say drop in, it may require some minor work to it to make it function properly. My recomendation take it to a competent smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Check the position of the leaf spring. The left-most finger is probably out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 If you cock the hammer manually and then lock the slide open, is there clearence between the bottom of the slide and the hammer? If there is, that would explain the hammer not getting to the hooks during hand cycling. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Another possibility is that the slide isn't getting full travel because of a shok-buf or an overly long recoil spring stopping it short of full travel. Gunsmith time, I'd say. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Is your trigger's overtravel screw screwed in too far? Try unscrewing it all the way, see if that solves the problem. If so, then we talk about how to adjust it correctly. Though frankly I don't like overtravel screws and just pull them out of my own triggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Firing pin stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 If you cock the hammer manually and then lock the slide open, is there clearence between the bottom of the slide and the hammer? If there is, that would explain the hammer not getting to the hooks during hand cycling.Hurley There is indeed a gap btw the top of the hammer and the bottom of the slide! ... Not good... What do I do now? The slide completely misses the hammer when it is cocked. Hammer to short? Hammer pin hole in the wrong place? Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmanfixit Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 If you are new at this, it is very wise to choose the gunsmith option. Fitting fire control parts that provide light pull and crisp break has art associated with it besides skill. Even high quality manufacture frames and slides, produced on modern CNC equipment can have errors. An experienced gunsmith can help you establish if the parts are bad or the frame is bad. Or if there is some other odd fault. Worst case here is an unsafe gun and the subsequent accident potential. Bullet wounds REALLY hurt!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 A new firing pin stop should cure what ails that one. Leave enough on the bottom as you fit it to push the hammer back enough to reach the full cocked position. Should do the trick. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 If you cock the hammer manually and then lock the slide open, is there clearence between the bottom of the slide and the hammer? If there is, that would explain the hammer not getting to the hooks during hand cycling.Hurley There is indeed a gap btw the top of the hammer and the bottom of the slide! ... Not good... What do I do now? The slide completely misses the hammer when it is cocked. Hammer to short? Hammer pin hole in the wrong place? Ryan It could be a lack of contact between the new hammer and the firing pin stop, but try one more test. Thumb-cock the hammer (you said it would stay in the fully cocked position that way). Then retract the slide and see if the bottom of the disconnector rail (that's the flat underside of the slide) contacts the hammer in the fully cocked position. In many cases it will cam the hammer just slightly, even at full cock. If it does, I would suspect the leaf spring is installed incorrectly (it's very easy to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 If the hammer is not touching the bottom of the slide, how much gap is there? I bet it will cock the hammer upon firing, due to the speed that the slide will travel during recoil (the slide forces the hammer back so fast that it will overrun the hooks and catch on them), however I wouldn't want any of my guns set up this way. I read something somewhere (I have been looking and I can't find it now) about one gunsmith that set up competition pistols so that the bottom of the slide didn't contact the hammer when the hammer was cocked supposedly so the hammer hooks and sear wouldn't be beating against each other as the slide went into battery. This was the first that I had ever heard of this theory ( I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a gunsmith). Long story short, if it were mine, I would contact Cylinder and Slide, tell them everything and see what they say. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) I just did one last inspection/tear down/re-install. The gap between the bottom of the slide and the top of the hammer is approximately the thickness of a piece of paper. Just enough to see light between both surfaces. The hammer is not touched at all by the slide during cycle (when cocked). The stock para hammer does get cammed down slightly at full cock. I don't think that I can just have a longer (taller) firing pin stop as I think it would bind on the frame as it would have to protrude lower than the bottom of the slide. The existing FPS is already flush with the bottom of the slide. I tried to compare the stock para hammer to the C&S and they are virtually identical (para is .005 taller). But I think the important part is the angular difference in rotation required to catch at full cock (I have no way to measure). The sear (leaf) spring is properly installed. I changed out the C&S hammer for the stock para hammer and everything works fine. So I guess I possibly have tolerance stacking? Anyway, I'm stuck so I replaced the C&S parts with the stock para components (aside from sear spring and main spring) and at least have a functional gun again. I will call C&S tomorrow to see what they recommend. Thanks all for the suggestions/ideas. Anyone know a good smith in florida? central florida? Ryan Edited November 14, 2009 by Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I'm not sure where Lakeland is with respect to your current location, but I think >>this guy<< should be able to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Don't confuse the firing pin stop with a firing pin block, they are totally different pieces, but in your case you need to use the correct nomenclature when you call a smith for help. You said in your last post "FPB", and I think that might not be the actual piece you are identifying, but your gun probably has both depending on how old it is. Series 80 vs Series 70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Don't confuse the firing pin stop with a firing pin block, they are totally different pieces, but in your case you need to use the correct nomenclature when you call a smith for help. You said in your last post "FPB", and I think that might not be the actual piece you are identifying, but your gun probably has both depending on how old it is. Series 80 vs Series 70 woops right you are. Edited. Thanks Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Don't confuse the firing pin stop with a firing pin block, they are totally different pieces, but in your case you need to use the correct nomenclature when you call a smith for help. You said in your last post "FPB", and I think that might not be the actual piece you are identifying, but your gun probably has both depending on how old it is. Series 80 vs Series 70 Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 The original poster actually seems to have a pretty good handle on exactly where the problem is coming from. I agree that you may have tolerance stacking, or a hammer that was just cut wrong. If you get a different hammer from C&S it may solve the issue. I have tried their drop in kit and it was nice for a while. However, there is no replacement for having someone custom fit a firing control set in your gun. BTW, don't try and lengthen the firing pin stop. It sounds like you already see the problem there. If it hangs down it could impact the frame and if it sticks down far enough to make that shorter hammer work when the slide strokes back it will probably hang up on the hammer when the slide strokes forward. Short version is that the hammer probably needs replaced. But, if you are close by somebody like Millenium then by all means get in touch with them to do a trigger job on your gun with those parts from C&S. You will be glad you did later. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earplug Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 My Springfield with a C&S kit had problems, I found out the original sear and hammer pins were undersized/worn and allowed the parts to wobble around. I used a Ed Brown pin kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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