Larue, plates and poppers

[Charles Bond]

That said, I believe that steel plated for MG fall under the rifle rules?

4.3.1.6 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration

challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails

to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer

shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to

reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

The Range Officer shall be the final arbiter as to whether

the plate is functioning as designed.

Flex, I agree with your rules cite but we have somewhat of a unique situation in that the Larue is unique because it is not a plate or flasher in the traditional sense. I am not there but can not imagine we are painting the targets between shooters and these are set at distance. The notion behind using the Larue is that you do not have to have a range officer calling hits on steel so the premise behind 4.3.1.6 is a bit difficult to meet since the RO is not going to know whether or not the equipment failed to indicate a hit because they are not looking and with no new paint at the beginning of each shooter starting the stage, after the 3th or 4th shooter, even if the RO was looking the call would be largely subjective. I would also suspect that the USPSA BOD willl have to address this at the meeting in Dec.

[Chris Conley]

Being that the Larue is a "unique" target maybe they shouldn't have been used because they are not covered in the rule book. Good on the staff to allow reshoots for the first 2 squad. It's the right call.

Sounds like a great fun match. I wouldn't come because my wife would run the bank account dry if she had the chance to breath Nevada air.

Chris C.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Chris Conley

[Flexmoney]

I'm no expert on 3G rules, but what I recently read seems to allow for various steel targets to be used (unlike pistol, which has a short list of specifically defined targets).

The above rule seems to cover them all just fine.

A popper, you calibrate it.

Any other steel target, it works (falls, indicates...whatever), or you order up a reshoot.

[MarkCO]

I'm no expert on 3G rules, but what I recently read seems to allow for various steel targets to be used (unlike pistol, which has a short list of specifically defined targets).

The above rule seems to cover them all just fine.

A popper, you calibrate it.

Any other steel target, it works (falls, indicates...whatever), or you order up a reshoot.

Yes, but in Pistol and SG, the ROs can usually see the hits, good or bad, and make an immediate call. With long range rifle steel, it is very difficult. A greay puff near the target does not mean a hit, which a lot of shooter will totally miss. On the LaRue, a base hit or edge hit may lead an RO to give a false call, either to the benefit or the detriment of the shooter, thus not "fair". There is not a perfect long range rifle target, yet. The steel coupled with a pair of Flash Target strobes might be the best so far, but it too has issues. Keeping the squads running in a timely manner while getting good indications of hits on long range range rifle steel remains an issue to be solved. I think the amount of money spent on the LaRues vs. other systems which are probably more reliable, is another one of the issues that should be examined closely. If you read many posts leading up to the Nats, the use of LaRues prompted at least a few folks to go to heavier bullets than they would normally use: experience with inconsistency on LaRues made them change loads. The point is, it is not just a rules question, but a range equipmnet AND rules question. I am sure everyone wants it to be "better" and "fair", and hopefully it will get there. With that said, unless you have RO'd a few hundred, or a few thousand, shooters on long range rifle steel targets, it will be almost impossible for you to understand the difficulty or to accurately critique the rules or the targets. I for one do not beleive reactive rifle targets past some distance (100, 150 , maybe 200 yards) should be considered plates or poppers.

Edited October 25, 2009 by MarkCO

[Charles Bond]

Being that the Larue is a "unique" target maybe they shouldn't have been used because they are not covered in the rule book. Good on the staff to allow reshoots for the first 2 squad. It's the right call.

Sounds like a great fun match. I wouldn't come because my wife would run the bank account dry if she had the chance to breath Nevada air.

Chris C.

The BOD approved the Larue Targets just before the match. That does not mean the entire match staff was up to speed on how they worked. That does not mean that USPSA had the depth of experience with them we have with other targets. But what it means is that we will build on this experience for next year and I agree that under the circumstances the reshoot was the right call.

[Charles Bond]

For someone out there with hands on experience with these targets, can they be adjusted, calibrated, etc?

[Tom Freeman]

For someone out there with hands on experience with these targets, can they be adjusted, calibrated, etc?

Yes they can. There is a small set screw/bolt in the base.

I own one and we shoot it every month at our rifle matches.

As long as the ground is solid or you build a solid base for them to sit on, they are an outstanding target. Just like a popper, if you hit them low, they might not go down.

Ours normally lives at 325-350 yards. 55 gn bullets have no problem taking it down.

[outerlimits]

I might add they did go down with 55's- I loaded the wrong ammo on the reshoot-found my 69's still in the ammo box. Larues are cool. Even with a 4x scope, you can easily see them fall. On Friday, they weren't.

What Daniel horner did to that stage was abusive!

[kurtm]

I would disagree, there IS a perfect long range target, it is a 10"x10" plate on a IPSC base ( found in the appendixs of the IPSC rifle rules), when hit it falls over, there is no base to sound like a hit, it doesn't need "heavy" ammo, it falls over and is gone. It is, so far, the ideal long range target. The down side is they have to be manualy re-set.

As an aside up untill 1999 ALL steel targets at SOF fell off a base. There was never any doubt as to if it was hit or not. It was labor intensive as each stage needed a re-setter, but there was never any question as to iff it was hit or not and there was NO inerface between R.O. and shooter as to "calling" hits. So the ideal target has come and went, along with paint I guess! KurtM

[Flexmoney]

Just like a popper, if you hit them low, they might not go down.

According to the current rule (quoted above)...steel targets are either poppers (subject to calibration) or they aren't (not subject to calibration, so if hit and they don't go...reshoot.)

So, if they don't go with a low hit... bad mojo.

Would there be any way to put [real] hard cover in place to take away the low hits, or hits to the base? (that might take away false "dings" as well)

[MarkCO]

I would disagree, there IS a perfect long range target, it is a 10"x10" plate on a IPSC base ( found in the appendixs of the IPSC rifle rules), when hit it falls over, there is no base to sound like a hit, it doesn't need "heavy" ammo, it falls over and is gone. It is, so far, the ideal long range target. The down side is they have to be manualy re-set.

As an aside up untill 1999 ALL steel targets at SOF fell off a base. There was never any doubt as to if it was hit or not. It was labor intensive as each stage needed a re-setter, but there was never any question as to iff it was hit or not and there was NO inerface between R.O. and shooter as to "calling" hits. So the ideal target has come and went, along with paint I guess! KurtM

The "IS" was refuted by "The down side is they have to be manualy re-set." Which more than doubles the stage time per shooter on a long range course, which therefore removes it even as a possible target. NO shooter/RO interface required AND NO reset required is the standard that needs to be met.

Kurt, didn't you shoot R&Rs 3 gong rifle plate rack? That might be getting close if there was a way to keep .308s from hitting the frame and taking down multiple plates.

[MarkCO]

Would there be any way to put [real] hard cover in place to take away the low hits, or hits to the base? (that might take away false "dings" as well)

At least two designs with plates on a pivot and flash cards have shields, but those still require ROs calling hits and some hits on the shiled get called hits, especially by shooters, done it myslef as a shooter, said no as an RO to same thing. The LaRues, like Tom said, work well if properly set up on a solid base and some protection in front of the base. The target suppliers certainly work on these issues and the designs are improving. Sometimes ranges/matches end up with a perfectly fine target and set about to use it, but lack the experience of a several hundred hits on a target. If the manufacturers would include some "Lessons learned" with each target to aid the Range Masters, that too might go a long way to evening things up. While I am sure someone has tried it, a nice railroad tie in front of a LaRue which is solidly based might be the ticket in line with your question Flex.

[Flexmoney]

While I am sure someone has tried it, a nice railroad tie in front of a LaRue which is solidly based might be the ticket in line with your question Flex.

That was my thinking.

[kurtm]

The "IS" was refuted by "The down side is they have to be manualy re-set." Which more than doubles the stage time per shooter on a long range course, which therefore removes it even as a possible target. NO shooter/RO interface required AND NO reset required is the standard that needs to be met.

Gee someone needs to tell the Europeans. We did 21 stages over 3 days at the Eruo Rifle Championships with targets as I describe. Not only did they fall they, were each manually re-set AND painted for EACH shooter and it NEVER went long. Not only did they use an "imposible target", they also shot paper at 300m and had time to "manually tape and score"...EACH shooter, and never went long. Possible target?? Possibly the U.S. match directors don't want to bothered, but don't say it won't work, cause I have seen it work only too well! KurtM

[Flexmoney]

Lets not take this thread into a pissing match. I am pretty sure that everybody wants to do the best that they can.

[bigbrowndog]

Mark, Kurt speaks the truth!!! The targets fell, were reset, painted,paper taped and scored without any back ups or delays, for each and every shooter. So to say it can't happen is inaccurate. to say it won't happen may be closer to the truth.

That said, I firmly believe that communication between shooter and RO should not be a tested skill, unless you or someone can devise a scoring program to test its effectiveness.

Time and again the interface between RO and shooter breaks down, RO's say they will call hits and then wind up calling misses as well, as a shooter if I hear the RO say something and its not STOP, I figure its a hit, but when its not the shooter loses!!!!

Steel that falls to be scored should be the standard, Period!!! The LaRues just like a popper may not fall if hit too low, that is the nature of the beast, you should not call hits if it falls its down if not shoot some more or move on and ask for calibration when you're done, a calibration zone can easily be set up for LaRues. It also is not the manufacturers responsibility to ensure the operators are smart enough to read the instructions.

With Steel that falls no communication between RO and shooter is necessary, for hits or which targets are being engaged or anything, but then you'd have no excuse for not being able to paint for every shooter.

Trapr

[Flexmoney]

As the USPSA rule reads now, the Larue is not treated like a popper. It is treated more like a plate.

There is no calibration shots to go with them.

I think the rule reads fine, as is. The match staff needs to get them set right, and then give a reshoot if they fail to go down with any hit.

Does anybody want them to be treated like poppers? If so, then the rule would need tweaking. I don't think having them treated like poppers is the standard to aspire to (popper calibration kinda sucks).

[bigbrowndog]

Flex, IF, MD's do not want to set the target up to eliminate low hits then Yes, popper calibration would be the easy fix.

I personally have never had a problem knocking them over with 155gr bullets even with low hits!!!!!!!

trapr

Edited October 26, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[Charles Bond]

And your choice of twist in a 223 for the 155gr is?

[Nik Habicht]

Mark, Kurt speaks the truth!!! The targets fell, were reset, painted,paper taped and scored without any back ups or delays, for each and every shooter. So to say it can't happen is inaccurate. to say it won't happen may be closer to the truth.

This may be a topic for another thread --- but would you share how they pull that off? It might result in some folks discovering a new way to do things....

[kurtm]

On the Range is clear command, two guys would hop on a 4 wheeler and run down range and do all the reset, usually took about 3 min. and if you figure a shooting time of 30-50 seconds, the cycle time was just right at 5 min/shooter. KurtM

BTW a bridge timber 12"x12" works real good in front of a LaRue so low hits done sound like a steel hit.

[Charles Bond]

Mark, Kurt speaks the truth!!! The targets fell, were reset, painted,paper taped and scored without any back ups or delays, for each and every shooter. So to say it can't happen is inaccurate. to say it won't happen may be closer to the truth.

This may be a topic for another thread --- but would you share how they pull that off? It might result in some folks discovering a new way to do things....

+1

[bigbrowndog]

twist with the 155's is 1 in 10. never said it was a .223.

trapr

[Nik Habicht]

On the Range is clear command, two guys would hop on a 4 wheeler and run down range and do all the reset, usually took about 3 min. and if you figure a shooting time of 30-50 seconds, the cycle time was just right at 5 min/shooter. KurtM

BTW a bridge timber 12"x12" works real good in front of a LaRue so low hits done sound like a steel hit.

So where these low round count stages? I'm envisioning 12-20 rounds?

[bigbrowndog]

Nik, there were short medium and long stages, anywhere from 6 rds to 30ish or more, my memory says there were a couple close to 40rds but I'm not positive. there were anywhere from 5 to 10 or 12 Long range steel on some stages. There was a good number of what I would call mid range steel, 7x7 targets at like 100m to 200m, with no prone position available.

trapr