Splits

[Dalmas]

I've been reading about split times in here that amaze me. I currently lay between .19-.21 with good almost hole in hole A-zon hits. but have never recorded a time lower than .19 so I decided to test how fast me and my gun can shoot, closing my eyes and just firing into the backstop as fast as I can but the fastest time I recorded (over 100 shots fired) was .19!!

I have a SVI full duster 9x19 (major not allowed in this part of the world ) trigger pull about 3.5lbs. standard mainspring (19lbs) and STI light recoil master... my index finger is also fully functional...

what is wrong? How do I get it down to .12-.14

[Matthew_Mink]

Relax and stop trying. That's it.

[Dalmas]

That's what i did. I've also used a stop watch to find out if the movement of my index finger was the problem but on that i can keep .12-.14 splits. Think I read in BE's book that the gun should never limit the shooter, i think mine does.

[Flexmoney]

That is why I shoot a Glock. Those S_I guns are too sloooow.

[Rush]

You might want to bring down you trigger pull to 2 lbs or less. Mine is about 2 lbs, and I find that any higher, its difficult to have fast splits in the .13 region. Never hit a .11 though. On my production gun (S&W910), I do about .16 with a SA pull of about 7 lbs i think.

[Rush]

of course this is just letting it rip :Don't even ask me to count the A's on these runs

[rhino]

A lot of factors come into play here . . .

One is the trigger, but the .38 super I got my 0.11 split on has at least a five pound trigger and it's very mushy with lots of overtravel! I can't work a Glock trigger that fast, though (not even close!).

Part of it is how your ride or slap the trigger. If you release it all the way, it will take more time than if you can feel the reset and then pull it again. The problem is, some people can't feel the reset (especially under stress) and they get "trigger freeze" if they don't release far enough.

Part of it is your physiology too. Some people just have quicker/slower fingers.

In the end, I have learned here (and confirmed in real life) that fast splits are more of a novelty than any sort of useful skill. The splits that count are those where you get a sight picture for each shot! And in the end, target to target transition times are going to make a much bigger difference in overall performance.

But it's still fun to see how fast you can trip the trigger!

[ErikW]

Earlier today, I shot splits of .09, .10, and .11, so I feel qualified to answer...

A 9x19 Minor SV? 1911 slides are heavy and you'll need a relatively hot 9mm load with relatively little spring, or the cycling is going to feel sluggish. (Nevermind that it's cycling 2-4 times faster than you are able to shoot it... if it feels slow, it's going to slow your splits.)

I believe a positive-resetting trigger is very helpful to shooting fast splits and preventing trigger freeze. (See the trigger freeze topic elsewhere.) After following through the trigger on a shot, let it return forward only enough to reset; do not let it return fully forward into or past its pre-travel. (This assumes you use the "trigger riding" technique, not the "trigger slapping" technique.) Glocks are great for this; I was shooting .14s within the first magazine through a brand new, box-stock model 17.

You must shoot relaxed.

You must have your recoil control skills mastered. You must feel in control of the gun. You can't feel like you're afraid of shooting the follow-up shot(s) high over the berm, or even be afraid of shooting over the target.

You need to let go of your expectation of what it feels like shooting your .19 splits. You need to re-live the feeling of triggering your stopwatch at .12 splits and apply that feeling to triggering your gun.

I always shoot my fastest splits when shooting pairs on multiple targets. My splits on multiple shots on a single target (Bill Drill) are slower.

[spook]

Good chance that your still "on the trigger" during recoil (meaning your holding the trigger back to control recoil). It's hard to separate controlling the recoil from pulling the trigger. Try focussing on that for a couple of shots. Do a little research on where the triggerfinger is when you're in full recoil.

[rhino]

Earlier today, I shot splits of .09, .10, and .11, so I feel qualified to answer...

Hey! I had an 0.08 the day I did the 0.11, two 0.12, and several 0.13 sec splits (all on the same magazine).

I just assumed it was an echo that the timer picked up (forgot to check how many shots it recorded). Is it possible I really did the 0.08??

JOEY NEEDS A .38 SUPER RACE GUN!

[Loves2Shoot]

Nope

I find I shoot the fastest splits if I just relax and watch the sights recover. Pulling the trigger the exact moment the dot or sight returns will give you wicked fast splits. (.1-.13)

That being said, splits don't mean much.

The great ones seldom use wicked fast splits. They get great hits on EVERY target. A friend of mine who has shot in the Super Squad a time or two told me TGO claimed he could win any match ever if he could shoot .2 splits on every target. Just something to consider.

[Flexmoney]

Is it possible I really did the 0.08??

You might have.

If you were outdoors and weren't close to a berm, wall or barricade, then there is less chance of an echo being recorded by the timer.

I've heard of shooters getting ultra-fast splits (.08 range) by "bouncing" the trigger. I think it is not so much pulling the trigger as it is having the trigger come into contact with the finger as the gun returns from recoil (does that make sense?).

I am thinking that Max Jr. has posted (on his forums) some of the fastest splits that I have heard of, around 0.10 - 0.12 seconds.

[benos]

I agree - splits don't mean much. Especially in a match, even though they are fun in practice.

And, relax, which actually means stop trying to go fast, which is the birth of excess tension.

And then there is the experience factor, unacknowledged in importance by many. I couldn't shoot fast breaks until after years of training.

be

[ErikW]

rhino, you might have, considering you were shooting splits close to that time. When I get a .07 time among a bunch of .25/.50 times, I know it's an echo. You can generally tell by an extra shot counted, too. BTW, foo-foo guns are slow; it's easier to shoot faster splits with stock guns.

I used to say I never shot under .20 in matches though I was capable of shooting faster splits in practice. I think I even posted in "Accomplishments" when I got to shooting .19 splits in matches. Now I can shoot .12s at will.

It has already been said that fast splits don't mean much in matches, and I agree. I shot some of my fastest splits ever at A2DC and I still got my ass kicked.

[shred]

I'm with BE... I couldn't shoot fast splits until a year or so ago. Then suddenly, and without practicing them, I could. Fun in practice, but the difference between a .12 and a .20 is still less than one point on paper, so it doesn't really matter.

Much more time is wasted in transitions than splits..

[rhino]

If you were outdoors and weren't close to a berm, wall or barricade, then there is less chance of an echo being recorded by the timer.

Outside near the woods . . . no real berm anywhere close . . .

I've heard of shooters getting ultra-fast splits (.08 range) by "bouncing" the trigger.  I think it is not so much pulling the trigger as it is having the trigger come into contact with the finger as the gun returns from recoil (does that make sense?).

I have a buddy who can make any 1911 with a decent trigger rock in his hand like it's full auto . . . so that's definitely what's happening when he does it. I'll be impressed when he can do it with a Glock!

Since I've learned more about transitions, I realize that really fast splits are kind of like a carnival trick. It's fun to do, but it's not really a useful skill compared to anything else. Plus I can't get anywhere near those low numbers if I'm actually looking for the front sight!

[Dalmas]

Thanx for the input. We are legally restriced in Denmark to nothing bigger than .357mag. Our dear politicians reason that you die more from a bigger caliber..thus .40s&w and .45 are not allowed. Makes it hard when we go out of country to compete but great for training accuracy. Oh well back to our splits.

Splits are fun - and everbody almost always reveal them when they have done something good so yes they are on my mind, but I have not checked what I do in a match probably around .19-.21 becauce thats where I comfortably place 2 clean A-zon hits. Gonna have to wait until summer to go crazy it's too cold up here now for my hands to work properly.

[Alex9x19]

I noticed that my splits are better when I shoot something like El-Presidente.

In this case I can easily get 0.13 - 0.14 and 0.11 is my best ever split shooting Glock 34.

If I shoot Bill Drill I normally get slower splits - something like 0.17 - 0.18.

I think that my index finger responsible for that.

[Jake Di Vita]

I think you are tensing way up and TRYING to shoot fast on the bill drills. A big no-no on both accounts.

[Alex9x19]

Should I try slow and relaxed instead ?

Then it might take more than 2 seconds

[Jake Di Vita]

Remove "try" from shooting all together. Relax and make it a vision contest.

[Flexmoney]

Should I try slow and relaxed instead ?

Then it might take more than 2 seconds

The "trying" is what slows you down.

Remove the trying.

Remove the tension.

See what is going on.

Let yourself let the shooting happen.

[Alex9x19]

It sounds like a mental change

Is there any exercise to achieve that?

[Jake Di Vita]

Best exercise I can recommend is to buy BE's book, read it, and apply it.

[Flexmoney]

Yeah...Brian's book is a must.

For an exercise...

- Change your goal.

- Take the draw out of the equation. (start with the gun in the high-ready)

- Forget about a target. Shoot into the berm at nothing (don't go picking a rock or clump of dirt to aim at).

- Now, make the goal to watch what the front sight is doing (slow fire). You want to see it lift out of the notch and be able to describe the alignment of the sights at the moment the front post lifted from the notch.

- Once you can do that 20 times in a row...with certainty...increase the speed. Now try to watch the front sight move thru it's entire arc. Burkett suggest to shoot faster than you can blink if you are having trouble.

Do that...and let us know. I can then give you another step.

BTW, use the timer only as a start beep. After that, don't even look at it. Ignore it completely.