Brian & Duane Talking

[Duane Thomas]

The following email conversation between Brian and me occurred today. I wouldn’t have posted it here myself because the ideas I put forth in it deviate so far from the accepted norm, but Brian gently suggested I do this. So here goes.

This was all sparked by Brian’s “Slowing Things Down” post in Tips for Improvement. I'm posting it in here so it can be in the same forum as Brian's original thread. Here was my initial email to Brian (Warning: mild language contained herein):

Brian,

Your thread on Slowing Things Down brought to the surface something that has been much on my mind lately, but I literally had no one I felt I could talk to about this. Not to sound conceited (I hope) but that's one bitch about an evolving skill level; as time goes by there become fewer and fewer people you can talk to who are even capable of understanding what you're talking about. I read your post and thought, "Of course, I'll talk to Brian."

Another reason I have hesitated to mention to anyone what I'm experiencing now is that it goes so against the grain of what is the common wisdom, even among very good shooters. I know that Calamity Jane posted her comment about "Is feeling more important than seeing?" which to me showed a mind out there on the edges, exploring ideas that most people don't have the guts to even dream. And people kinda jumped down her throat about it.

I'm in the process of going through what seems my own mental evolution in shooting, but in my case it's expressing itself as learning to accept my speed.

A couple of examples. Practicing the IDPA classifier, the first three strings are Mozambiques, two to the body, one to the head. I'm out on the range and sucking at it. Generally I put one shot into the center circle, the other will be outside it. Occasionally I miss a head shot. My times are in the 2.2s. I know, laugh.

So I decide to see what will happen if I just commit to getting this all over with as fast as possible. Relax, don't think, shut down my conscious mind, just let it flow. Thing is, for the first body shot I don't remember seeing the front sight; I don't remember seeing the front sight for the second body shot; I only remember seeing a blur of the front sight for the third shot on the head. But suddenly I'm posting two shots into the center of the -0 circle, not even close to the outer edge, and my head shots look like I used a compass to center them, all in the 1.8s. For me that was fast. And I do that time after time after time, this was not a fluke.

But it scares me because I didn't do what everyone says you should, see the front sight for every shot. So after that I go back into consciously seeing the front sight, focusing on my trigger control, etc. Eventually I get a bit better, my times are now predictably in the high 1.9s to low 2.0s but occasionally I miss. Certainly I'm not posting the 1.8s with perfect shots I was when I just let it flow. Why am I so scared to perform at that level? Obviously it's because I'm not consciously seeing the front sight. But if my shots are hitting that perfectly, time after time, I must be seeing them subconsciously, yes?

Second example. I'm doing a lot of practice these days with an Airsoft, a lot of single shot draws from the holster on a little aluminum mini-popper, working the draw speed. Lots of missing as I push the speed. I figure that's okay, keep pushing it. I'm starting to get these instance, every so often, where everything just happens, no conscious thought, so fast it scares me. Again, the shot fires before I consciously pick up the front sight. And it all happens so damn FAST. At which point my instant thought is, "Shit! That was too fast, I didn't even see the front sight." It scares me. But every time - every single f*#king time - it happens I hit the popper. It never fails.

What I **think** is happening is that I've finally gotten to a point in my shooting that I can cut the conscious mind out of the shooting to the point that the sights don't even register on my conscious mind. But surely I must be seeing them, right? There's no other way to explain the fact that, every single time this happens, my combination of speed with accuracy goes through the roof. And this is repeatable - Every Single F*#king Time.

I think part of the problem I'm having here, mentally, fear-wise, is that there is a Pavlovian correlation in my mind with the times, in years past at a lower skill level, where not seeing the front sight always meant I was trying to shoot too fast, and therefore missing. And how does this all relate to the times when I have committed to seeing the front sight for every shot, I've felt like I was going along at a decent though not extraordinarily fast clip, and it was only after the last shot, when a sensation of normal time returned, that I realized, "Godddamn, that WAS fast wasn't it?"

This is all very confusing to me.

Duane

[Duane Thomas]

Here is Brian’s reply:

DT,

Relax, don't think, shut down my conscious mind, just let it flow.

That's it. Relax, let go, and see what happens. See what you see.

But it scares me because I didn't do what everyone says you should, see the front sight for every shot.

Sometimes you see things you don't remember, especially when operating at max capacity. And in that state, if you see something that's a red flag - you will notice - and take corrective action.

I remember many great stages shot under a lot of pressure where I didn't remember much specifically - I just had a calm, flowing, comfortable feeling.

But I also remember many great stages where I remember seeing EVERYTHING in incredible detail.

The lesson for me: There is no one way to always strive for.

The most important thing is to create favorable conditions for your potential to manifest. Be calm, open and aware, not careful, and not trying anything at all. If you are full of awareness you won't be thinking about anything at all.

So after that I go back into consciously seeing the front sight, focusing on my trigger control, etc. Eventually I get a bit better, my times are now predictably in the high 1.9s to low 2.0s but occasionally I miss. Certainly I'm not posting the 1.8s with perfect shots I was when I just let it flow. Why am I so scared to perform at that level?

Because you think you need to be consciously in control.

Trying to see the sights slows you down. Because you're trying, and not JUST SEEING.

Obviously it's because I'm not consciously seeing the front sight. But if my shots are hitting that perfectly, time after time, I must be seeing them subconsciously, yes?

You are still trying to explain it. So you can be consciously in control.

Learn to trust the little voice inside that will be silent when things are good, and tell you if something went or is wrong.

Second example. I'm doing a lot of practice these days with an Airsoft, a lot of single shot draws from the holster on a little aluminum mini-popper, working the draw speed. Lots of missing as I push the speed. I figure that's okay, keep pushing it. I'm starting to get these instance, every so often, where everything just happens, no conscious thought, so fast it scares me. Again, the shot fires before I consciously pick up the front sight. And it all happens so damn FAST. At which point my instant thought is, "Shit! That was too fast, I didn't even see the front sight." It scares me. But every time - every single f*#king time - it happens I hit the popper. It never fails.

That's a cool zone to get into. But I kept that zone for practice. Running on that edge isn't reliable for stages/matches.

What I **think** is happening is that I've finally gotten to a point in my shooting that I can cut the conscious mind out of the shooting to the point that the sights don't even register on my conscious mind. But surely I must be seeing them, right? There's no other way to explain the fact that, every single time this happens, my combination of speed with accuracy goes through the roof. And this is repeatable - Every Single F*#king Time.

See above. ;-)

I think part of the problem I'm having here, mentally, fear-wise, is that there is a Pavlovian correlation in my mind with the times, in years past at a lower skill level, where not seeing the front sight always meant I was trying to shoot too fast, and therefore missing.

That makes sense. But you are different now, it's time to move on.

And how does this all relate to the times when I have committed to seeing the front sight for every shot, I've felt like I was going along at a decent though not extraordinarily fast clip, and it was only after the last shot, when a sensation of normal time returned, that I realized, "Godddamn, that WAS fast wasn't it?"

You need to learn how to see the front sight without worrying about not seeing it.

be

[Duane Thomas]

Brian’s follow-on message:

Duane,

It's up to you... but if you want you can post our exchange. I was hoping to get something good going with that thread - it was a life shaping event for me.

be

[kevin c]

Man, I've been able to do that in drills (draw to a near perfect shot without thinking about it) for years, but haven't ever gotten beyond middling A. Now I'm realizing that my fastest shooting and best hits happen when I don't care.

Too much control. Too much trying. Too much caring.

Thank you for the posts, Brian and Duane.

Kevin

[G-ManBart]

This is great stuff!

I've sort of floated around the edges of this in the past, but hadn't quite zeroed in on quite this aspect before.

I have had instances in matches where I've made a really hard shot blazing fast (okay, for me anyway) and later realized I never had a thought, of any kind, when I made it....no front sight focus etc, etc. For some of those the idea that I'd taken the shot actually surprised me. One time I was running and drilled a round steel plate while I was moving (going hard) into position....I'd planned on taking it after I got into position and was settled. I must have seen the sights perfectly to hit a round plate of that size while moving, but never had any thought associated with it.

Last year's Nationals I did that one time that was just sweet. It was get into position, hit an activator, static paper, fast drop turner and another static paper. As soon as I shot the activator something told me I had enough time to get both static papers and then the drop turner.....I just smoked all three and moved out. All the GM's came over and said "was there really enough time to get both papers there or were you rushed?". Clearly my subconscious mind realized that the drop turner wasn't moving as fast as I thought it would, and it simply took over, had me shoot the two static papers and was waiting on the drop turner when it got there....nobody can "think" that fast, but that is exactly what happened, and it wasn't just dumb luck.

I certainly haven't come close to really understanding this, but it's something that I know on a basic level. As competitive shooters we have trained our brains to recognize, evaluate and act based upon a bunch of visual inputs. When the subconscious mind decides that all of the parameters are within acceptable tolerances, it executes the shot the way it has been trained...it doesn't care if we're moving, or if we aren't where we thought we'd be, etc....none of that matters.

Since when we're in that "mode" (for lack of a better term), we're not thinking about the sights (or anything else) so we don't even remember seeing them, but we must have to make the shots. Since everything happened just as the subconscious mind expected them to, we take no particular note of it....because we're not thinking, we're simply observing, experiencing and acting.

I think most of us have fired a shot and, for whatever reason, something didn't seem right, so we make it up without thinking about it....it just happens. Later, we look at the target and see a Delta (usually right where you expected it was) or that there was a mike. That's the subconscious mind saying "I didn't see something I needed to see, so do it again" and the only reason we took note of it, was becasue something just wasn't right.

In a similar fashion, in golf or baseball you always, always, always know when you've hit a great shot exactly as it happens....you don't even have to look and you know right where it's going. The subconscious mind has had plenty of time to evaluate what was going on simply because it works so quickly.

Cool stuff!

[SiG Lady]

Especially too much trying. I've wasted more ammo with too much trying.

[Mo Hepworth]

let it happen,..is this what I get from this? Confusing myself a little. I know in production I try and see almost every sight picture, but when (sometimes) shooting steel I see a blur but I know it is acceptable and call my shots. In standard or limited 10 I generally see the least amount I think I need to see, as my A/C are close to being worth the same (I treat time as more important),...whereas in production the C hit is double the loss. (ie: -2per hit) so points are more important.

Should all my shots be "blurs"...? this is not PPC or bullseye.....so I think this is correct,..

BTW,..thanks for sharing this

[2MoreChains]

Looks to me like the draft of a future Blue Press article...

[Mistral404]

Duane, Thanks for the post and Brian for your responses.

At this year's Lim Nationals I had some moments as you described in your email. In the house stage, I scampered over to the first two targets-did not consciously see the sights (2A, 2A), third target (2A) fourth target had a no shoot on top, I hit the A and a no shoot, I was out of the room and down the hall when the no shoot registered. Backed up to make up the shot. The last three targets were exactly as you describe. I pushed and scored well.

Learn to trust the little voice inside that will be silent when things are good, and tell you if something went or is wrong--BE

I need to work on remembering that feeling when shooting.

Again, thanks for describing a recent revelation that I too experienced.

[Graham Smith]

I actually have very little choice in the matter of seeing the sights - my eyesight sucks. There is a scene in "Caddy Shack" where Chevy Chase is urging the young caddy to "be the ball". Very Zen. Actually, very Kyūdō.

We sometimes joke on the range to "be the bullet"; but the truth of the matter is, the stages I have shot the best were all ones where things just seemed to flow. They didn't seem rushed (even though my times were fairly good, for me) and the targets all seemed clear. But afterwards, I didn't recall really seeing the "sight picture" all that well - the tiny green FO on the front sight I remember seeing. One stage earlier this year was kind of a run-and-gun - a series of targets behind obstacles and a firing lane - as you move down the lane the targets come into view. At the end were two small poppers out about 30'. I shot a perfect score, and it just felt like I was floating along.

Last Saturday, we had a small indoor club match and it was a good day except for one target which was a plate surrounded by white just on the other side of a barricade. I knew before the shot even hit the no-shoot what I had done - it was the one shot I took that day where I concentrated and I missed.

Call it instinctive shooting, call it muscle memory, call it whatever you want, I do better when I just relax and let it flow. I used to shoot archery and it was the same thing. I have to practice, practice, practice until things feel so natural that I don't have to think about them anymore then I have to just stop worrying about it and do it - that's the hard part for me.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Graham Smith

[GlockerJeff]

This is also something I have also been thinking about. This summer there was a shoot at our local club that I had been looking forward to. On the day of the shoot I was not so excited about it but I went anyway to support the guy who organized the shoot. On that particular day I was not concerned with winning any more, just shooting as I had practiced. When the results were sent out I had actually won the match! I tried to think back about how I did it. What were my site pictures? How can I repeat this match? I could not remember any of the details of what I was doing in any detail. As Brian says, it was just about the shooting. I learned alot from that match that I almost did not attend.

[bkeeler]

For me now in my shooting it is all about trusting(which I am learning in practice) what I see during the shooting will be what I need to see to make the shot without thought/rushing or trying to see any one thing.

BK

[Chris iliff]

What a great thread. Thanks for starting it Duane. I have had this experience a lot in the last year and I too have gotten a little scared. It's almost like I did something that turns out great, but is against the norm. Hard to even talk to anyone about it because sometimes there's nothing to relate because I can't remember. I think, geez, how to describe that run or that shot is hard because I don't really remember it, I remember the feelings of it. Calm, relaxed, knowing, confident, free. Now I just wish I could get there on demand!

[benos]

A lot of good adds to your post Duane. Thanks for putting it up.

It's difficult to remember something you didn't think about.

be

[Duane Thomas]

Looks to me like the draft of a future Blue Press article...

Good God, no. This stuff is so out there on the edge that a general readership would either have no idea what the hell I was talking about or COMPLETELY misunderstand it.

[G-ManBart]

It's difficult to remember something you didn't think about.

be

Oh great, I type up a page to say what you said in one line....just be that way, why don't you (pun intended)

[2MoreChains]

Looks to me like the draft of a future Blue Press article...

Good God, no. This stuff is so out there on the edge that a general readership would either have no idea what the hell I was talking about or COMPLETELY misunderstand it.

Oh, I don't know about that. I've read a lot of your stuff, and you could probably pull it off.

Or if you prefer, watch the movie Bull Durham with Kevin Costner and Tim Robins again. Don't think, just throw, Meat! Garters under the Techwear, anyone?

[SiG Lady]

"It's difficult to remember something you didn't think about."

Hmm... I see this imbedded in a signature soon on this forum........

[Duane Thomas]

Matt Burkett has said to me numerous times, "Good shooting is boring." Now, I don't find it so, I find it wonderfully interesting. Of course, for me, it's still a fairly new experience. There are things I am very much just brushing the edges of. It's a very exciting point in the evolution of my skill set. What Matt was referring to is that when you're shooting well there's no ego involvement in the shooting, it's not exciting because it's like you're not there. Afterwards you literally don't remember it because nothing in it even impinged on your consciousness. Matt also told me, "I've shot 30-plus round field courses and afterwards couldn't remember anything that happened."

[benos]

Matt Burkett has said to me numerous times, "Good shooting is boring." Now, I don't find it so, I find it wonderfully interesting.

I agree. Returning from the zone to yourself could be the most awesome feeling there is.

be

[Duane Thomas]

I know exactly what you mean.

[SiG Lady]

Good Shooting is one of the greatest highs of all. I don't find it the LEAST bit boring!

[G-ManBart]

The true measure of genius or artistry is making something incredibly hard look easy. When you burn one down, just stone kill it, I won't say it's boring, but it's not "exciting" because it seems like the easiest thing in the world.

Ever notice some of the most amazing knockouts in boxing appear to come from punches that seem almost effortless? 300yd drives in golf from a swing that's as smooth as butter? A personal favorite....my great uncle counter-skinking an entire 4" nail with ONE stroke of the hammer while leaning at a weird angle off a ladder (he had been a blacksmith as a young man) and making the entire house shake. All appear effortless and have been done so many times they aren't thinking about a damned thing when they do them.

After the only stage at this year's Nationals that I really shot to my capability the RO said "wow, that's right up in the middle of the Super Squad". I said "you're kidding me?, NO way" but timers and points don't lie. I don't recall any conscious thought until he said that. I need to think about not thinking a lot more

[Graham Smith]

It's difficult to remember something you didn't think about.

IOW, here we are taking about "nothing" again.

[gdw042]

Hi All, been on the forum for a while, just reading and absorbing. This is the first time I've been really prompted to post though.

As a LEO, I have to shoot for qualification several times a year. Many years ago, when I was first starting out, I could never shoot that 100% score. in the 90's, yes, but never 100. I tried hard, every time, but never made it. This was also before I got into competitive shooting.

Then, one day, due to a lengthy combination of circumstances, I had been awake for over 24 hours straight when I had to qualify. I had a lot of other stuff on my mind as well and did not really care about my shooting. That day, I shot nothing but perfect scores all day long. I do not remember it at all. I remember being so tired that I would go and sit against the tire of my car and close my eyes when I was not on the line shooting.

The point is not to go shoot when you are so tired that you cannot see straight, but that because I no longer let my conscious mind control my actions, my subconscious took over and did what it knew how to do. Ergo, it shot well. Interestingly enough, once I knew I could do it, I have not shot less than a perfect score since then. (If you saw how easy police qual courses are, you would see this is not saying all that much.)

There have been a few stages since then when I have recaptured that feeling without being so tired. Now the goal is to be able to get there on demand.

Thanks for sharing your discussion Duane and be, I for one really appreciate it.

GDW