warpspeed Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 I agree with TL. Suit the gear to the task. If you have the resources to but a $4000 race rig & open gun, go for it! If you can only afford a $ 500 for a production rig, that's fine too. TL mentioned MBO. 100 % dead on. What is your objective? Mine is to have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 If you were digging a tunnel out of prison, would you rather do it with a spoon, or a shovel? Both will get you there...hell, I'd use a backhoe it I had one avaliable. That's a keeper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 It has been said that few of the top dogs are using new guns. The old stuff is fine, because they have done the work to get to the top. If you know your reload, a bigger mag well is not better, just bigger. If you don't know the reload, a bigger mag well won't teach it. If you think that your high end gear is is increasing your hit factor. You are fooling yourself. Whatever gear you have, is only as good as what you can do with it. For many, the gear is a crutch. They won't play, if they don't have the best gear. They don't learn as fast, because they expect the equipment to do it for them. Face it. Your gear IS holding you back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 That post is like a walking controdiction. Either it is holding you back, or it isn't. My feelings, along with many many others, is the equipment does not hold you back unless it is totally inferior. I think this thread has run it's course. I vote for a lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I wouldn't finish as high overall, but I am convinced my skills would be better. Now that's where I really get confused. By using the cheaper gear you would develop superior skills, and go as far as fast as you would with spendiferous gear, but you wouldn't finish as high overall. Color me stoopid, I just can't understand how finishing lower is better. I give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 If you were digging a tunnel out of prison, would you rather do it with a spoon, or a shovel? Both will get you there...hell, I'd use a backhoe it I had one avaliable. That's a keeper! Would a backhoe be considered open class in the USPEA ( United States Prison Escapee Association) ? Sorry , couldn't resist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Probably would be considered Open class, and if it is mine, be certain it would have the BEST accessories and trailer on the market, because I wouldn't want my gear to hold me back... ROTFLMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Ok, now think about it this way: If all you had was a spoon, would you wait until you had "better" gear or start digging now? "Don't let your gear hold you back" cuts both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 OK, OK, I give up. I will sell all my good gear and start using a tactical shoestring device to hold my STI close to my belt, and to hell with mag holders, just jam those big suckers in your jeans pocket, and I guess I am ready for my man on man with TGO. Put a Freaking Fork in me cause I'm done, as is this discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 "While some of us know that we could still improve by practicing with entry level gear, it's just plain more fun to play with high end toys. I'm an advocate of buying the best gear one can afford 'cause then one has no excuses for poor performance ..." (kdj) I'm buying a Valtro because I want good equipment, I want to know what good equipment feels like, and I'll keep the Kimber to recall what a decently-tuned, mid-range blaster feels like. Moreover, when it arrives I truly WILL have no further excuse for poor performance based purportedly on flaws in equipment...! (Not that I've been using my guns themselves as excuses--quite the contrary... I usually batter MYSELF before I blame the gun). Before the Kimber were other guns in my stable that were unsuitable for league action and I wasted a LOT of money, a LOT of time and LOT of ammo on trying to make them "do" but that was a gross error. I chose then to spend some money on a decent gun, then MORE money on an even decenter one. Period. I've paid a few dues in my short coupla years of shooting and will be DAMNED ready for the Valtro when it arrives. And I won't feel guilty either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Which guy needs to practice more? The guy with good gear, or the guy with the best gear? Trick question, everyone needs to practice more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Exactly. But I'll just enjoy it more with better hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Sorry TL.. I wasn't beating on you, just commenting for the general audience. If all's I've got is a spoon, I'll be digging as best I can with that spoon.. but, if a shovel shows up, I'll be transferring the dirt-and-digging knowledge gained with the spoon and seeing where it takes me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Just so we can come full circle at this, here's Steve's first post again: If you have a gun/holster combo that is safe, reliable and accurate enough to hit a popper at 25 yards...There is a 99% chance your gear is good enough to take you as far as you are willing to go. This needs pointing out from time to time. SA I just kinda wondered why this thread is now so long..?... May you have a great shooting year ahead of you guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 How many said they would not be happy with gear that was good enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 I haven't counted but there something like two dozen GM's of one type of another who drop in on this thing and probably two or three times that many G's. Well maybe only two times, I forget MX5 comprises about 12% of the G's by himself. Aren't GMs and Gs the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 I think we're talking about two different things here. One is your performance level The second is the rate of change in your performance level (i.e. how quickly you improve). Selecting different pieces of gear may change your performance level, but it likely will not change how quickly you improve. Recently, I bought a bunch of Safariland mag pouches to replace the tight leather pouches I had. I immediately found I was able to get the mags out faster, but there was of course no improvement in the speed or reliability with which I got the mags into the gun, and I expect that the rate at which my reloads get better will not be any different. Buying mag pouches may have changed my reloads from 2 sec to 1.5 sec, but my reloads will still only improve by (say) 0.1 sec per year of competition and practice. Thinking recently about getting an Open or Limited gun, I've asked some shooters whether they felt they learned faster using one or the other (I asked that question here, too). Some said they did, some said they didn't. Some argue that you can learn to see more and differently using an open gun than you can using an iron sighted gun. Some argue that if you want to be good at shooting iron sighted guns, shoot only iron sighted guns. The point is you need to look at your equipment as a vehicle for becoming a better shooter. Will a certain piece of equipment reward your practice and effort more than another piece would reward the same effort? DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Dogma, I think your theory of Performance vs. Improvement makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Ellis Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 As a currently U class shooter returning from a 15 year hiatus to IPSC, allow me to add my perspective. I participate in 3 sports, action pistol, skydiving, and scuba diving. What they have in common is that they are equipment intensive. I have seen it over and over in sky and scuba where newbies buy the latest, expensive high tech equipment thinking that the equipment will make up for any of their skill shortcomings. Farther from the truth. As long as the equipment is adequate and safe, use it. As we always tell our new skydivers, 'Buy decent used gear for your first rig. As you gain experience you'll know what you want and need. Save the money to buy skydives. Gear doesn’t make the diver.' When I returned to IPSC I dusted off my Ernie Hill rig and purchased a new Loaded SA in 45. It works. TGO and BE turned hit factors with similar rigs years ago that I may never see. I’m spending the money on reloads and range time. If / when I get good enough to notice that the gear is limiting me, I’ll notice it. If you have a gun/holster combo that is safe, reliable and accurate enough to hit a popper at 25 yards...There is a 99% chance your gear is good enough to take you as far as you are willing to go. Can't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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