Considering reloading lead

[Lonely Raven]

Howdy all. I stumbled into this forum from a post over at ARFCOM. I've been reading through some posts for an hour or so here, and I like the general attitude here!

Anywho, I'm getting back into shooting pretty seriously recently after a few years break. Broke out the old RCBS Pro2000, bought myself an AR-15, and even my fiance is getting more and more into shooting having picked up a couple rifles and considering an HK P30.

So I've been an old skool Montana Gold customer, and my stash I bought back in 2001 is almost out. I hit up their web page and almost fell out of my chair with how much the cost of jacketed bullets has gone up! And I need to buy bulk on 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 S&W, and soon .45 ACP and .223!

So with the prices of quality jacket bullets going up, I'm considering trying out lead.

What do I need to know about reloading/shooting hard cast lead? Any special requirements or power limits? Different Powders required?

My fiance and I shoot casual target at indoor ranges, but are considering joining a nice (large) outdoor gun club come spring...if we can afford it. So we are using the next 6 months to purchase any new firearm, and reload anything and everything so we are ready for next year.

I'm open to suggestions, web pages to read, whatever.

Also, I'm not opposed to buying from Montana Gold again, or any other quality bullet manufacturer, I just need to keep my costs down as much as possible. Otherwise we may have to put this hobby aside for a while (Again).

[rfwobbly]

LR -

Welcome aboard!

I am not a lead shooter, but can get you started in a good direction on some of your questions...

• Not clear if you wanted to shoot lead in your AR, but the AR requires a certain power level to operate the mechanism. I'm not aware that the slower velocities lead bullets require could result in enough power. If so, you most probably would be in the velocity range that would result in barrel leading, which would kill your accuracy over repeated shots.

• There are some health concerns about shooting lead, which you can read about on almost any reloading page. Lead vapors are especially dense on indoor ranges. So check out the indoor range ventilation systems (not just price/ location), or consider an outdoor range.

• Generally, I see warnings to stay away from very fast pistol powers like TightGroup when using lead or moly-coated lead. Use more moderate speeds like Win231.

• For lead bullets, you might want to check out Missouri Bullet for no other reason other than very fast delivery. Or consider a half-way step by shooting plated bullets from a company such as Berry Mfg. You can price both these bullets at Graf & Son.

Hope this helps!

[bkeeler]

LR -

• For lead bullets, you might want to check out Missouri Bullet for no other reason other than very fast delivery. Or consider a half-way step by shooting plated bullets from a company such as Berry Mfg. You can price both these bullets at Graf & Son.

Hope this helps!

Welcome !

I personally do not shoot lead. I use MGB JHP's . But I would not even consider a plated bullet.

Plated 40 180gr $226.03 per 2000 .1130ea., MGB FMJ $295.00 per 2500 .1180 ea. and CMJ MGB $300.00 per 2500 .12 ea a better bullet for almost the same as a plated.(plated not worth it in my opinion.)

Lead you will have to change your load if using fast powders unless you want to deal with the smoke. A lot of people shoot lead I am just not one of them for my own reasons.

BK

Edited September 17, 2009 by bkeeler

[calishootr]

+1 on the non use of fast powders, what it does is melt the base too much causing both too much smoke anddepending on the bullet's hardness leading in the barrel, like was mentioned earlier, 231 is great for jacketed bullets steer well clear of it w/ lead, I personally run WST w/ all my lead loads, cooler burning, softer felt recoil, clean shooting, and before the component prices went thru the roof was only 10 bucks per lb....vs. VV 3n37 for my open gun at 22 dollars+ per lb....hope that helps

[sobrbiker883]

I use hard cast moly coated lead bullets in my 40's, but would never consider lead in an AR. To high of operating pressures and heat, let alone the possibility of lead buildup in the gas system.

[twodownzero]

I have been shooting lead for years in 9mm and .45 and I would not trade it for anything. I use powders that are among the fastest available and I have not had any issues.

I used Clays for years and have since switched to Accurate's Solo 1000. My loads make power factor, are soft shooting, and they don't smoke too much. I also used moly coated bullets in the past and I am going back to them because they don't gum up the dies as much.

Lead bullets are absolutely perfect for outdoor shooting.

[Lonely Raven]

I have been shooting lead for years in 9mm and .45 and I would not trade it for anything. I use powders that are among the fastest available and I have not had any issues.

I used Clays for years and have since switched to Accurate's Solo 1000. My loads make power factor, are soft shooting, and they don't smoke too much. I also used moly coated bullets in the past and I am going back to them because they don't gum up the dies as much.

Lead bullets are absolutely perfect for outdoor shooting.

OK, can you recommend some quality lead or moly to use with Solo 1000?

[twodownzero]

I have been shooting lead for years in 9mm and .45 and I would not trade it for anything. I use powders that are among the fastest available and I have not had any issues.

I used Clays for years and have since switched to Accurate's Solo 1000. My loads make power factor, are soft shooting, and they don't smoke too much. I also used moly coated bullets in the past and I am going back to them because they don't gum up the dies as much.

Lead bullets are absolutely perfect for outdoor shooting.

OK, can you recommend some quality lead or moly to use with Solo 1000?

yes. Call bear creek supply at 209-874-4322

They don't have a website anymore but nobody makes a better Moly bullet, trust me.

If you want bare cast lead, hit up my friend Jim's website at www.snscasting.com

[2MoreChains]

+1 for Bear Creek moly bullets. I like them. After experimenting with a few different powders, I settled on Hodgdon Clays w/ Bear Creek's 200 gr SWC as my load. 4.2-4.3 grs makes a comfortable major PF.

Nice controllable recoil, accurate enough, clean, and very little smoke. I had some smoking issues when using regular lead 200 SWC's, and got tired of gumming up my dies from the lube on the lead bullets.

Last time I ordered, Bear Creek is charging $38.50/500 for their 200 gr SWC, which makes it very competitive with lead SWC's from other manufacturers. Plus they offer free shipping on orders over $95. I think their 230 gr RN is $42.50/500.

If you're used to loading FMJ's, you might try belling your cases a little more for lead or moly. Other than that, not much difference.

Cleaning lead out of your bbl, or methods to keeping leading to a minimum is a whole 'nother subject!

Cheers

[JimmyZip]

Yeah, if you want to run your AR, lead is not really an alternative. (Gas systems and lead don't really mix well. The velocities are not right for lead either.) But for pistols, there is really no cheaper way to shoot alot. Bear Creek and Black Bullets International are what I shoot in 9mm and .40. Bear Creek seem sto be just as good, but a bit cheaper, so there you go.

I can't remember my lead load for 9mm, but for .40 it is Bear Creek 180gr LFP, 4.7gr Solo1000, various small pistol or small rifle primers, and loaded to 1.143" out of my CZ Tactical Sports. I can't recall the chrono for PF, but I know the load by heart now. Shoots relatively soft, low smoke, and really accurate.

I don't often shoot indoors, so I can't really give you any advice on the health issues other than to read up on it. I will say though that lead from processing brass is another issue unto itself. Tumble outside if you can, and WASH YOUR HANDS!!

Just from washing and tumbling outside, I have managed to keep my lead down to levels that were not significant. (I had them checked when I started seeing my new GP and told her I reload and was interested in KNOWING if I had too much exposure.)

So if you mitigate the risks, and are careful, you should be able to shoot lead with little to no ill effects on your health. But, if you think you might be inclined to neglect what are some of the risks, and allow undue exposure, then shoot jacketed, and shoot less. YMMV

JimmyZip

[Chills1994]

Let me give our OP a rundown on bullet choices:

1. regular jacketed...like a bullet from Montana Gold or Precision Delta...or Remington....or Winchester...or Speer

2. plated....like the Barry's, which used to be a cheap alternative available from Cabelas, but from the Fall of 2007 to about Feb 2008 the prices literally doubled. My problem with the Barry's is that some are undersized. In the 9, the .40 and the .45, I have noticed that the tolerances just aren't there. Some will run 0.399", some will run 0.400", and others will "mike out" at 0.401" for the .40 cal. I am thinking that is why they sell the double struck bullets.

3. Moly coated bullets, of which there are three and now a fourth big name in Moly Coated bullets:

Black Bullets International

Bear Creek (as was previously mentioned)

Precision (not to be confused with the jacketed Precision Deltas)

and then the Bayou Bullets owned by Donnie Miculek: http://bayoubullets.net/

4. Swaged lead... just right off the top of my head, I think Hornady is the only one I know about that makes a cold swaged bare lead bullet.

5. Cast lead, of which I have NOT heard anything bad about the Missouri ones or the SNS ones either.

As far as .223 reloading goes, I can't say one way or the other, definitively, that shooting a cast lead bullet out of the AR will clog up the gas port. I have seen videos of guys casting their own .223 bullets on YouTube. I do know there are all sorts of tinkerers who have success casting and shooting .308 caliber boolits through M1 Garands for years without any problems. What I am saying is that: 1. I would have to experience it myself with my own two eyes 2. You can't necessarily believe everything that is spread around the internet.

Montana Gold does make a .223 FMJ style of bullet. I think it is a pretty good deal, pricewise.

I think the dangers from shooting lead are over-rated. I think just the tumbling of brass is a far greater hazard because the dust is inhale-able. And the primer compound has lead in it. I wear a dust mask and throw in bounce dryer sheets and some odorless mineral spirits when it comes to tumbling brass.

[Lonely Raven]

Thanks for the info everyone. And especially thanks for the list Chills.

You wouldn't happen to be the Chills I already know, would ya?

I think I might try loading lead in my .40, and I'll stick with some quality bulk bullets for .223. I'll figure out the rest over the winter.

Thanks again!

Let me give our OP a rundown on bullet choices:

1. regular jacketed...like a bullet from Montana Gold or Precision Delta...or Remington....or Winchester...or Speer

2. plated....like the Barry's, which used to be a cheap alternative available from Cabelas, but from the Fall of 2007 to about Feb 2008 the prices literally doubled. My problem with the Barry's is that some are undersized. In the 9, the .40 and the .45, I have noticed that the tolerances just aren't there. Some will run 0.399", some will run 0.400", and others will "mike out" at 0.401" for the .40 cal. I am thinking that is why they sell the double struck bullets.

3. Moly coated bullets, of which there are three and now a fourth big name in Moly Coated bullets:

Black Bullets International

Bear Creek (as was previously mentioned)

Precision (not to be confused with the jacketed Precision Deltas)

and then the Bayou Bullets owned by Donnie Miculek: http://bayoubullets.net/

4. Swaged lead... just right off the top of my head, I think Hornady is the only one I know about that makes a cold swaged bare lead bullet.

5. Cast lead, of which I have NOT heard anything bad about the Missouri ones or the SNS ones either.

As far as .223 reloading goes, I can't say one way or the other, definitively, that shooting a cast lead bullet out of the AR will clog up the gas port. I have seen videos of guys casting their own .223 bullets on YouTube. I do know there are all sorts of tinkerers who have success casting and shooting .308 caliber boolits through M1 Garands for years without any problems. What I am saying is that: 1. I would have to experience it myself with my own two eyes 2. You can't necessarily believe everything that is spread around the internet.

Montana Gold does make a .223 FMJ style of bullet. I think it is a pretty good deal, pricewise.

I think the dangers from shooting lead are over-rated. I think just the tumbling of brass is a far greater hazard because the dust is inhale-able. And the primer compound has lead in it. I wear a dust mask and throw in bounce dryer sheets and some odorless mineral spirits when it comes to tumbling brass.

[Chris Christian]

Just a thought.... cast lead bullets can vary noticeably in their weight and consistency due to the pouring/cast process, and the amount of tin & antimony added for hardening. The lube required can also create a fair amount of smoke (it burns). If they are cast hard enough they can be driven over 1200 fps without too much lead build up. Cold swaged bullets (Hornady and Speer) are more consistent in weight and quality due to the swaging process... and the hard lube they use generates very little smoke. Their drawback is that they will cause leading if they are driven much above 950 fps. I have loaded Speer and Hornady in .38 and .45 ACP for many years (231 or HP38) and hold them below 900 fps.... the 45 230 LRN makes 165 PF at 720 fps and the .38 158 LRN makes 125 PF at 800 fps. I have never used lead bullets in a .40 S&W, and will not use them in a 9mm because of the velocity required to make 125 PF. I have no leading problems, or smoke, with these swaged loads in .38 and .45. A simple way to knock a lot of the lead they may produce out of the barrel is to run a handful of jacketed slugs through the gun, after the lead, and barrel cleaning is then simple. These loads are not as accurate as a quality copper jacketed bullets, but not that far off. My Ruger GP-100 will shoot under two inches at 25 yards with jacketed stuff, and about 3.5 with the lead. The .45 S&W M&P will do 2.5 inches with jacketed and about 3.75 with the lead.... I've seen 1911 guns do better. That's more than adequate for practice, although I normally shoot jacketed for a Sanctioned match. Hope this helps.

Chris Christian

[Chills1994]

Chris Christian wrote:

The lube required can also create a fair amount of smoke (it burns).

I think that is just an old wive's tale...about the lube causing the smoke.

I shoot about 100 of my own home cast but UNlubed boolits through 2 different 1911's cambered in .45.

The smoke was still bad. And this was with Clays powder.

Let me say that one more time... I shot about 100 rounds of cast boolits that didn't have any lube on them. They still smoked real bad.

This was about a month ago.

The Colt's barrel had leaded up so badly that at about round #40 through the gun, the boolits were going through the targets sideways (aka keyholing)

So the next evolution of testing is going to involve:

1. shooting lubed boolits side by side with UNlubed boolits using the same Clays powder. This is where video'ing the results would be handy. And then posting them to YouTube.

2. Then shooting lubed boolits with say WST or Solo1000 powder to see if they smoke any less.

As far as accuracy issues go with cast vs. lead...well... you really do need to slug you barrels to see where they are sized at. And then you run your cast boolits through whatever appropriately sized sizing die, like a .451" or a .452" or a .453"

And I think lead boolits can be driven up to almost 3,000 feet per second.

Any faster than that, I think the friction from the air literally heats up the boolit enough to melt the lead away. Whether that involves a gas checked boolit or a paper patched boolit... to get it going near 3,000 fps... I have no idea.

As far as pushing 9mm fast enough to make major PF...well that all depends on what weight bullet you are starting out with:

125,000 divided by 147 grains = 850 fps

125,000 divided by 115 grains = 1087 fps

I have even heard of a guy or two, maybe on this forum using a 165 grain-ish bullet, which I think was originally meant for .357/.38 revolvers, and sizing that down for 9mm and shooting those.

The general concensus, I think, here on the forums is that for reloading for competition is to go with a heavy bullet and a fast powder for a different/better recoil impulse and possibly less muzzle flip.

[Chills1994]

Out of all the lead boolits I have ever shot, the cold swaged ones from Hornady smoked the least. But who knows? That might have had nothing to do with whatever lube they apply to them, but rather the size of the bullets, their softness and how the back end of the bullet was dished (maybe some people call that a hollow base).

I did contact Hornady a couple of times to get their lube recipe out of them. They did say that it was Alox and one other ingredient, which they wanted to keep secret.

If I was heading off to a major match, I would probably bring along a box of jacketed rounds just in case I had to shoot through a barrel or a 5 gallon bucket.

But then again, I haven't tinkered with cast lead boolits and WST or Solo1000 powders just yet either.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Chills1994

[Chris Christian]

Chill1994,

Based upon your exhaustive tests, I guess you figured out why cast lead bullets need a lube. When round #40 starts tumbling without lube... that's called a "clue". And when the barrel is so leaded up that it takes on the appearance of a sewer pipe after that few rounds... some of us consider that a " Big Clue". As far as cast bullets being capable of being driven to 3000 fps... I have to ask what planet you spend most of your time on. Even the hardest cast bullet (max tin & antimony) will lead at velocities above 1600 or so fps. Add a gas check and you can get 2300-2400 fps... beyond that, lead doesn't cut it. This is not my opinion. It is the cumulative wisdom of over 100 years of combined experience from NRA High power Rifle shooters, and Elmer Keith-type handgun hunters.

BTW... when you put the required lube on the cast bullets it does burn. Powder can play a role in how much smoke results from the burn... but it's the lube doing most of the smoke. Just thought you might want to know.

Chris Christian ... been reloading since 1969.

[Chills1994]

Dude, I don't even know where to start.

I'll just let this one go.

If our OP would like any other information or my opinions on things, just PM me.

[Chris Christian]

Chill1994

You are correct... you don't know where to start. I'm familiar with the sources you quoted in your PM to me. They did not prove consistently valid in the Real World, and have been withdrawn from published data. Don't ask me... ask any NRA High Power Rifle shooter above the rank of "newbie". The physical properties of lead moving down the rifled barrel of a firearm (propelled by 45,000 - 50,000 psi worth of hot powder gases) haven't changed. 3000 fps with a cast lead bullet is not achievable with consistent accuracy. The Brinnel Hardness Scale figures you noted that your source noted are not achieved by commercial bullet casters.... just call them and ask them what their BHN figures are... then get your own Brinnel tester scale and measure them. You will be dsappointed. It's easy to take data that you have read and pass it over the "errornet" as your own "facts". But, you have to determine first, that it is indeed fact. You didn't, in this case. You believed without varifying, and you mislead the other people reading this. Just thought you'd like to know.

Chris Christian

[Chills1994]

[toddrod]

Just to clarify, the Bayoubullet brand is not moly coated. It is a totally different coating.

[Chills1994]

Whhoopps! I stand corrected.

I guess I could have just plain out asked Donnie Miculek what it is when I talked with him on the phone earlier in the week. I am working out my own technical issues and Donnie was nice enough to talk to me and give me advice over the phone. Anywhooo... I don't like to pry too much ...especially when someone is giving me free advice, and I have heard before of "secret, proprietary processes" when a friend was in negotiations for a former bullet maker's automated casting and sizing equipment.

And yeah, I had to ask too...he is Jerry's brother.

[bball97]

I have been shooting lead for years in 9mm and .45 and I would not trade it for anything. I use powders that are among the fastest available and I have not had any issues.

I used Clays for years and have since switched to Accurate's Solo 1000. My loads make power factor, are soft shooting, and they don't smoke too much. I also used moly coated bullets in the past and I am going back to them because they don't gum up the dies as much.

Lead bullets are absolutely perfect for outdoor shooting.

OK, can you recommend some quality lead or moly to use with Solo 1000?

yes. Call bear creek supply at 209-874-4322

They don't have a website anymore but nobody makes a better Moly bullet, trust me.

If you want bare cast lead, hit up my friend Jim's website at www.snscasting.com

+1 on SNS Casting. Prompt shipping and good prices.

[Justsomeguy]

I have used several thousand S&S cast bullets in my .40's (XD family) and have been quite happy with the accuracy and function. I use Silhouette powder though, which is a midrange powder as far as burn rate. You still get a little smoke, but I shoot outdoors and it has not been a problem. Titegroup does produce quite a bit more smoke with lead, but it burns very hot anyway... just try picking up a just fired casing which used Titegroup vs. Silhouette and you will perceive the difference right away. I think most of the smoke is from the lube on the bullet and not the bullet itself, but some powders MAY be hot enough to partially melt the base of a lead bullet during the ignition and travel time down the barrel, though I don't know just how much additional smoke this produces than the lube itself. The lube would melt from two sources of heat. 1) From the "blowbye" when the round is fired and the bullet has not had a chance to fully expand into the grooves of the rifling but the gases have passed the base of the bullet before the full pressure of the particular round is reached. 2) From the friction of the barrel itself as the bullet is accelerated down the bore. The second cause we can do little about, but the first can be modified or nearly eliminated by carefully choosing the pressure curve, burn rate and heat profile of the powder involved for that caliber. Experimentation and experience of other shooters will reveal what is best for a particular gun/bullet combination.

[RufDog]

I just recently tried some lead bullets, I got them from MO Bullet Co. Their staff is great, it is ran primarily by a husband and wife team, they were friendly and answered any questions as well as shipped my order right away. I have loaded some in 40 & 9 using clays, and IMO there is a fair amount of smoke. Having never shot lead I may not be the best judge of how much smoke is a lot though. I may try a slower powder in the fall. I do plan to shoot lead in the future and will use MO Bullet Co bullets.

[Holsterdude]

I have used lead for years until the range I go to stopped all lead from being shot. They only want jacketed shot now. Something to do with the lead levels always being to high.

One thing I can tell you is the lead is much more work cleaning up the barrel etc etc. Its dirty compared to jacketed bullets. The jacketed bullets are a quick cleanup.