2010 LaRue Tactical Multi-Gun Match

[AlamoShooter]

Stage 5 LaRue target not falling with several near center hits. Got to have a plan for calling a target bad when so many of the late Saturday shooters hit the target several times and the RO said "hit it higher"

The Running back and forth to the same table to pick up one gun at a time had a "Silly" feel to it = even at a club match we would have set up a separate barrel left and right for separate guns. The separation and gun staging could have been completed as the targets were set, with no time loss.

Its a small thing, but presentation is 1/2 the job sometimes.

We made Cartoon sounds every time a shooter ran back to the same table to get another gun

Written stage descriptions for us hearing impaired /slow hearing. So that we can know the stage requirements (even if it is only available to the squad on deck.

IF! we cant walk or look at the stages the day before the match + Tell us before we louse a days work.

I call showing up early "Smart" =Being Prepared with Intel= Good Re-con is not gaming = its smart <Going in Dumb and blind >

If we are supposed to be unprepared - thin put all the ammo in a big bucket so that we don't know whats going in our gun

I go to work with the right tools & material.

next year let some-one help with stage plans and descriptions (even if it is the day before as the RO shoot) I bet three or more guys would step up that do quick stage plans on the computer. ( I will volunteer if I have to, I am not as good as most)

Jamie

Hate me if you have to ( Why do I feel like a sacrificial Lamb)?

If next year was going to have more of the same as this year= I would still pay more and take an extra day for this match =Thanks this was a good match for me.

Edited May 11, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[SC-Texas]

I enjoyed the match and as poorly prepared as I was, I still had a good time shooting with my squad and the squads ahead and behind us.

Thank you Linda and Greg for putting a great match on.

Thank you Mark, Alfred, Tyler, JP and everyone else at Larue Tactical for your hard work.

Thank you to the RO's who gave their days to run the range and the stages.

Finally, thank you to all the Wounded warriers and Military who shot the match.

[vsound]

Greg, many thanks for a great match. Very challenging, especially for those of us that are just office pansies.

Two comments:

Preferably choose another weekend besides Mother's Day. One week before or after would have saved some grief over being gone for Mother's Day.

Would it save time to join the two back-to-back squads into one larger squad? I know you're trying to give folks a chance to go get BBQ and take a break in between, but it might save time by cutting the stage briefings and walk-throughs in half, and there would be more folks resetting between shooters.

[SC-Texas]

Alamo shooter . . . . regarding stage 5 . . . . why did I keep hearing the Benny Hill theme running through my head everytime someone shot?

[AlamoShooter]

Benny Hill theme song -that was one, of them I think when I finished 5 the squad said "Mc Grobber!"

NO way ...just No way you could have shot stage 5 and now hit the play button on that song and not laugh untill you cry.

I want the video

Or same song with slow mo and me finishing up on stage 8

Edited May 11, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[B_Ayers]

Hey Alamo, I agree. We should have gotten stage descriptions about thursday before the match or a book when we checked in for the match. The Texas State Carbine Championship Match, they had a book for all the shooters that had the designs and stage descriptions that they could keep in their bag. That was really nice.

Stage 5 was comical @ times..... But the benny hill show theme! Too good... that's funny!

Edited May 11, 2010 by B_Ayers

[Alaskapopo]

Well...we got 'er dun! The range is clear and pray that everyone made it home safe.

Thanks to Steve for his hard work and allowing us to have the match on his facility. Fred Q, you are the Man, thanks Sir. Linda Chico...nuff said.

RO's and Staff - You are by far the best and made it happen, world class. Mark and the LaRue Tactical team are world class and thanks for your generous sponsorship, hard work and dedication to the sport of 3 Gun.

Thanks to all the Sponsors that support Multi-Gun.

Shooters...thanks for coming and I think you were challenged a time or two and hope everyone learned something.

The critical element of every mission is the de-brief/AAR, we conduct it to make our execution better. Don't care about the good, send me the bad, how I can improve and make it better. Don't worry, I am bullet proof when it comes to de-briefs.

Adios

Greg

Things I think that would have made the match better.

1. Make the par time longer at least for the hard stages or shorten the stages. It is disappointing not to be able to complete a stage especially when you fly 9 hours to get there to shoot. On several stages all but one member of our squad timed out. Also this forced shooters to game it by just shooting as fast as they could pull the trigger on targets to avoid getting an failure to engage penalty. I would drop the FTE and add in a failure to neutralize penalty like IDPA has. Meaning if the target does not have at least one -0 or -.5 hit you get a penalty for not neutralizing the target in addition to the misses. This match was one of penalty management. Meaning in about half the stages you knew you would not be able to finish if you gave your best effort to hit the targets so you had to just accept that you were going to miss and blast a round at the target to avoid a FTE.

2. More consistency on gun handling. One RO told me muzzle down while handing the firearms the next would tell me muzzle up. Also on some stages grounding a weapon with the safety on was acceptable in others they wanted the mag removed and the chamber empty. I feel it would better to be consistent.

3. Slightly less focus on un-realistic shooting positions. I would never attempt a left handed 250 yard shot in real life unless something was broken on my right arm. I can see shooting around a barricade with your left side but shooting out in the open prone left handed on long range targets a bit out of the norm.

4. Slightly more strict gun handling rules. There were no safety tables or safe areas to work on your gun so people were handling weapons off the line pretty regularly.

5. In one stage an RO was being particularly gruff with the shooters. He told a friend of mine to take that crap off your gun. That crap was a brass catcher that needed to be on his MSAR bull pup so he could shoot it left handed without being injured. My friend explained this to the RO and he just said hurry up.

6. The gun raffle. If you say that a gun is going to be raffled at the end of the shoot then it should be. Several in my squad were pissed when their odds of winning the pistol were going to be diluted further by extending the raffle several months. It felt like false advertising.

7. Obviously the exclusion of stage 7 was a bummer as that was my best stage performance by far. I met one RO that was third place on that stage and it hurt him a lot more than it hurt me and it was obvious that it bugged him too. I think the solution for a stage prop problem should have been a re shoot for the people affected and to fix the stage. But I understand the time factor. Perhaps next year maybe one less short stage so a stage like the jungle run can be completed. In my opinion that stage had the highest fun factor of them all. The next in line was the stage where we shot from the back of the truck. That was also a blast.

Most of the RO's were excellent and very professional and tolerant. Only a couple were having bad days due to the long and hard hours they were working and it showed. Overall I enjoyed the match and plan to come again. Thanks again for your hard work.

These are just my opinions. I enjoyed the match and plan to come again.

Pat

Edited May 11, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[bigbrowndog]

For all you people "whining" about not having a target fall and being told to hit it higher. I expect to see you shooting HEAVY Tactical next year. 150grs on target was never a problem, and as for NEVER shooting a left handed 250yd shot?????????????????? bold talk for a............oh never mind!!!!

safety on, empty chamber, mag out,

whatever!!!!, you will always be good with an empty gun, just do it that way and you will never have to worry about being DQ'd for the safety being knocked back off, accidently.

I got to have dinner with the RM after the match and he asked for my honest opinion about the stages, here is what I told him. all of the stages were good some just had one or two aspects of it that were above ability of the "average" shooter. Stg 3 would have been ok without the last 2 LR rifle targets. STG 8 would have been better with larger rifle targets for two for two of the four. Stg 5 was just too much memory work, the stage was cool on its own without the running or the memory work it could have been done all from the table. Stg 6, was too much like a training drill, (which it was) tell the shooter which targets and that weakhand shoulder must be used and let them figure out how they want to shoot it.(prone should have been acceptable, as a knee is in contact with the ground) Stg. 7 was just too long, for movement it was close to 3ooyds to shoot and come back after shooting and gassed. Stg. 1 would have been a lot less painful with hay bales, and a lot less confusing with faultlines. But there really was no stage that was hard, just some very technical or difficult parts of stages.

Those that got DQ'd should remember that the MD/RM did not DQ you, they merely enforced the rules, you DQ'd yourself. I have flown overseas just to be DQ'd and it sucks,..... but those are the rules, we play by.

I thought it was a fun match, with a great prize table, and great food. With fine tuning it can become a great match, more details on that to follow????????

trapr

[AlamoShooter]

An RO should know his stage, and know how the targets work, if they need fixing = fix them, or at the least if a target has to be hit near the head to make it fall tell the squad before they start. The LaRue targets are too good to have them miss used.

Even at a club match we all want a fair chance. So Double Mr heavy

And post stage I remember a 308 shooter not bringing it down with hits that looked above the grass line.

Give the RO the tools to work with to glass the target and see if it has changed.

I did not whine about it, -Grumble mayby- But I did help to make it fair for the Sunday group and Fred fixed it.

Hey and The Camping area = Wow Theas guys went way over and above to provide good camping only a few of us got to see how nice it was. Next match I go to at that range it would be fun to camp so that a night time party could be had close so that other shooters could say Hi

[Alaskapopo]

The only bad experience I had was with TSA on the way home.

They held my bag up saying I had too much ammo. I knew the rules and they were wrong. I asked to speak to a supervisor who refused to speak with me. I even showed them the regs on my friends I phone from the web site. In the end my bags went through. The TSA agents never apologized or even talked to me again. The ticket agent was the one who said it was ok to go. We almost missed our flight as we made in on in the last boarding call. TSA never ceases to amaze me with their own incompetence. For the next match I am going to buy my shotgun ammo on scene rather than fly with it. I only plan to bring my pistol and rifle ammo. The only reason for that is I reload as most of you seem to.

Pat

[ausshooter]

Please don't dumb down the stages so that "everyone" can finish. You want to finish better? Practice. Train. Shoot more matches. We need more matches that aren't "shooter welfare". I, personally, enjoyed the technical aspect of this match thoroughly. Often times matches are a lot of run and gun but it doesn't feel like it's a real CHALLENGE. Going from pistol work to offhand 250y shots? Yeah.. that was good stuff. Shooting from a variety of positions offhand .... I love it. I hadn't practiced that. I had to reach WAY down into my toolbox to find the right way to get that one done. I applaud the MD for designing things that would make us work for it.

A

[ken hebert]

I'm with the previous poster. If you cant (insert whatever happened to you to cause you to not finish well on a stage), now you know what you need to practice on. "shooter welfare", I like that, and I will be bringing it back to my home range. IMO, if there was something about this match you didnt like, feel free to put together your own 8 stage, $125,000 prize table, 3 day long, sold out 3gun match and run it any way you want to. Yeah, this match was tough. If it was easy then it would be called IDPA and not the Larue TACTICAL 3 gun match.

Hell, there were some parts of this match I wasnt particularly pleased with my performance on. But guess what? Thats what I will be practicing on this month so I dont get caught off guard or unprepared for the next time that I might see it in a match.

I'll be back next year too.

[Bodacious]

The match was great and I have stages I didn't care for and stages I loved, but I think that goes with every match. The BBQ stage was by fart the best.

Of constructive criticisms I would suggest better ways to dispose of weapons when transitioning. Most stages were good to go about this but stage 5 was obscene. When I shot the stage we had to place the weapons on a pile of shot shells and empty brass. Next time please have a lined bucket of some sort.

I would also prefer safe areas for weapons handling. There shouldn't be a "whatever" when it comes to safety. Multiple acts of negligence and inattention have lead to accidents in the past. We are not immune to this and I say we were lucky. I had to call several people out on muzzle awareness. If safe areas existed violations of safety rules would be far less numerous.

Thanks for a great match and I hope we get to see a lot more physically demanding stages like stage 7 next year. I want a dummy drag and lets low crawl through some mud.

[JessJohnson]

SGDM:

1) RO's should have consistent rules between stages, particularly around weapons handling and loading.. I.E. stage all weapons in once place and preload there. Some RO's were easy to let people transition to backup gun, others required a lot of work on the failed weapon prior to allowing it. This was somewhat confusing for a first timer as it then became necessary to go ask every single RO what was expected of us.

2) Trashcans at each stage. Stage 7 had no restroom and a long wait.

3) Some RO's would clear your grounded weapon for you, saving a lot of time. Others required everyone to wait while you did it. Stage 3 rocked at this, stage 4 dragged at this. Also, stage 4 kept going out w/o letting 3 or 5 know, forcing them to go cold at times during actual runs.

4) Don't change a thing around the physical challenges and accuracy penalties. Maybe allow more time for the longer stages, or just tack on time penalties for going over. I would like to be allowed to complete the stage, even if it hurts my score to continue rather than just stop.

[Alaskapopo]

SGDM:

1) RO's should have consistent rules between stages, particularly around weapons handling and loading.. I.E. stage all weapons in once place and preload there. Some RO's were easy to let people transition to backup gun, others required a lot of work on the failed weapon prior to allowing it. This was somewhat confusing for a first timer as it then became necessary to go ask every single RO what was expected of us.

2) Trashcans at each stage. Stage 7 had no restroom and a long wait.

3) Some RO's would clear your grounded weapon for you, saving a lot of time. Others required everyone to wait while you did it. Stage 3 rocked at this, stage 4 dragged at this. Also, stage 4 kept going out w/o letting 3 or 5 know, forcing them to go cold at times during actual runs.

4) Don't change a thing around the physical challenges and accuracy penalties. Maybe allow more time for the longer stages, or just tack on time penalties for going over. I would like to be allowed to complete the stage, even if it hurts my score to continue rather than just stop.

I agree especially with #4. I paid a lot of money to travel down there and it would have been nice to finish shooting each stage regardless of the score.

Pat

[M ammo]

I do agree,,, no ""shooter welfare"" is needed in 3 Gun. I liked the stages, and I was rewarded in tasks I had prepared my equipment for, and trained for. And had to pay Murphy's law, for what I didn't practice.

I know what to add to my, practice drill. Shooting weak side rifle,,, even thought I hate it.

I like the LaRue targets. At all distances they are still smaller than,, a full target, and you can find them. out to 400 is good for a 3 Gun match, IMHO..

I like shoot houses! Blow the hinge, type of stages,,, pick the color shoot or no shoot,, all good stuff,,, not just hosssser stages,, but think a little stages,,

Ok Ken,, , your still a young man,,I don't know you,,, but feel the Love,, , all of this crawling in the Mud.. nothing says fun like living in wet paints.. been their done that.. I have contacted Your local Army Recruiter and told him you are a candidate for 11B or 13F, If you are Prior service,,,, this is not a problem!,

I do like demanding stages, finding the balance of demanding and only the Pro's can do it is a hard balance.

Guns on a mat for transition were fine,, guns can't fall off of the ground.

Looking forward to, what challenges you come up with next year!

Jim M ammo

[IfightCrime]

The only issue I saw on Friday's shoot was at stage #8. With the placement of the first popper(slug), if it was not taken early the shooter might try to "make up" the shot, which came dangerously close to stage #5. I did not see if this was resolved for the weekend shoot. Just my observation.

[kurtm]

Well how about no running or crawling for running or crawlings sake. IE. stage #3 Instead of standing and shooting 10 pistol targets, then grounding the pistol and running a long way untill you shoot the rifle, scatter the pistol targets on the way to the rifle shooting. Skill at shoot and move and then some precision, but don't bore the shooter with a long run with nothing to do. The tunnels would have been great with a few pistol targets in the middle to break up the monotony of just crawling.

Stage 5 has been well covered, and each gun should have had it,s own port instead of trying to remember to go to a bunch of different ports with little tiny numbers. Carnival for sure!

LaRue targets...well I don't know what changes on them, all I can say is I shot 55gr. bullets, always have probably always will, and I had absolutely no LaRue trouble. Evey last one of them fell down when hit with these whimpy little bullets. I never had to shoot one more than once, maybe 77 grain bullets need more powder

Had a great time. Had a great feed and Greg got me drunk...can't ask for more! KurtM

[vsound]

....The BBQ stage was by fart the best....

Boy, I'll say.....that was a long ride home.

[M ammo]

A big plus,

not DQ ing for hitting a shot target with a slug!! And just giving a procedural.

How many people would have got DQ'ed UNK,,,, but I'll guess 20%..

and No I did not hit one with a slug,,,

Not DQ ing, and giving a procedural or a fine, is the way to go,, many people take vacation, drive across the country, spend a lot of $$$ to get to the match and play this game,,, to get a DQ for hitting something down range at a shooting match.... is a black eye, on the match,,, (if you say its is about safety),,,, that target,,, should not be on the stage at all,, a DQ does not have to happen. for that,,, Good call!

And Fred Q,,,, you are the man!!,, I know you are the guy who had to fix all that stuff,,,, a small fine collected to send Fred on a vacation,,, would have been appropriate

Edited May 11, 2010 by M ammo

[1chota]

Well how about no running or crawling for running or crawlings sake. IE. stage #3 Instead of standing and shooting 10 pistol targets, then grounding the pistol and running a long way untill you shoot the rifle, scatter the pistol targets on the way to the rifle shooting. Skill at shoot and move and then some precision, but don't bore the shooter with a long run with nothing to do. The tunnels would have been great with a few pistol targets in the middle to break up the monotony of just crawling.

Stage 5 has been well covered, and each gun should have had it,s own port instead of trying to remember to go to a bunch of different ports with little tiny numbers. Carnival for sure!

LaRue targets...well I don't know what changes on them, all I can say is I shot 55gr. bullets, always have probably always will, and I had absolutely no LaRue trouble. Evey last one of them fell down when hit with these whimpy little bullets. I never had to shoot one more than once, maybe 77 grain bullets need more powder

Had a great time. Had a great feed and Greg got me drunk...can't ask for more! KurtM

well, the crawling may have been boring for you, but this ole dog was huffing and a puffing.

[BigLucky]

SGDM:

1) RO's should have consistent rules between stages, particularly around weapons handling and loading.. I.E. stage all weapons in once place and preload there. Some RO's were easy to let people transition to backup gun, others required a lot of work on the failed weapon prior to allowing it. This was somewhat confusing for a first timer as it then became necessary to go ask every single RO what was expected of us.

2) Trashcans at each stage. Stage 7 had no restroom and a long wait.

3) Some RO's would clear your grounded weapon for you, saving a lot of time. Others required everyone to wait while you did it. Stage 3 rocked at this, stage 4 dragged at this. Also, stage 4 kept going out w/o letting 3 or 5 know, forcing them to go cold at times during actual runs.

4) Don't change a thing around the physical challenges and accuracy penalties. Maybe allow more time for the longer stages, or just tack on time penalties for going over. I would like to be allowed to complete the stage, even if it hurts my score to continue rather than just stop.

I have to say that I totally agree with Number 4.... I really enjoyed the stages and it seemed that on the ones I timed out on it was when I was getting to do the funnest shooting after doing the slow painful shooting to get to that point (Stages 4 and 5 in particular). Penalty management was totally the theme this weekend for those of us who are in the middle to lower spectrum of the pack...

Number 1 was also a big issue.. I saw at least one glaring example of the squad before doing something that the RO said he would "DQ you in a heartbeat for" and when asked about the previous squad I was told that "well I wasn't here to do their breifing". That is why written stage descriptions that are read to ever squad by whoever is doing the briefing is so critical.

Edited May 11, 2010 by BigLucky

[bigbear_98]

Please don't dumb down the stages so that "everyone" can finish. You want to finish better? Practice. Train. Shoot more matches. We need more matches that aren't "shooter welfare". I, personally, enjoyed the technical aspect of this match thoroughly. Often times matches are a lot of run and gun but it doesn't feel like it's a real CHALLENGE. Going from pistol work to offhand 250y shots? Yeah.. that was good stuff. Shooting from a variety of positions offhand .... I love it. I hadn't practiced that. I had to reach WAY down into my toolbox to find the right way to get that one done. I applaud the MD for designing things that would make us work for it.

A

I agree with this post. Don't dumb it down. I felt thoroughly challenged. It wouldnt have been as much fun if it was just a hose em down match. I know what mistakes I made and where I could have improved, and where I did good. No reason to make it easier.

My dad and little brother came out and shot with us. It was their first big match ever. They did better then some of the experienced shooters I saw on some of the hardest stuff. We all had a blast.

HELL, You want to talk about Iron MAN!! My little brother shot it all with an iron sighted AK and an 870 on purpose!!

Great job guys.

ETA: I really want to see the results of Stage 7!!

Edited May 11, 2010 by bigbear_98

[benny hill]

I had a good match but would have used hay bales instead if pallets to crawl under. some others required stiches in their head but I only had cuts. The raffel ty gentry & myself put together for tate moots was for 500 tickets for the pistol & 500 for the Larue rifle. We hope to sell them all by Ft. benning as to raise more money for tate moots. I did not realize they were selling tickets at the match for the same drawing. I will get all the stubs from greg & add them to our stubs & will draw for them at benning.

[JessJohnson]

Please don't dumb down the stages so that "everyone" can finish. You want to finish better? Practice. Train. Shoot more matches. We need more matches that aren't "shooter welfare". I, personally, enjoyed the technical aspect of this match thoroughly. Often times matches are a lot of run and gun but it doesn't feel like it's a real CHALLENGE. Going from pistol work to offhand 250y shots? Yeah.. that was good stuff. Shooting from a variety of positions offhand .... I love it. I hadn't practiced that. I had to reach WAY down into my toolbox to find the right way to get that one done. I applaud the MD for designing things that would make us work for it.

A

I agree with this post. Don't dumb it down. I felt thoroughly challenged. It wouldnt have been as much fun if it was just a hose em down match. I know what mistakes I made and where I could have improved, and where I did good. No reason to make it easier.

My dad and little brother came out and shot with us. It was their first big match ever. They did better then some of the experienced shooters I saw on some of the hardest stuff. We all had a blast.

HELL, You want to talk about Iron MAN!! My little brother shot it all with an iron sighted AK and an 870 on purpose!!

Great job guys.

ETA: I really want to see the results of Stage 7!!

BB, It was fun to shoot in the squad with you guys. My first gun match of any sort as well. Your little bro kicked serious ass with that AK.

You were top 10 in stage 7 at the end of Saturday. I don't know if they posted results for the for fun on Sunday.

stage 7

Edited May 11, 2010 by JessJohnson