For DQ purposes when is your match completed?

[G-ManBart]

This came up in another thread and it's not something I've heard of before....I did a search and after 7 pages of results didn't find anything, so here goes:

A competitor shoots his last stage of the match, the RO calls "range is clear", they score the targets and the shooter signs his score sheet. The shooter grabs his range bag and walks to the safety area, bags his gun and then pulls the mags out of his belt and sticks them in his bag. He's handling ammo in a safety area, which is normally a DQ offense:

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

The question is, can he be DQ'd at this point? He's already completed the entire match so the violation took place after the match, not during the match. I'm wondering about this because there are other sections of the rules that differentiate between the main match and pre or post matches (shoot offs etc).

10.3.5 Scores for a competitor who has completed a “pre-match” or main

match without a match disqualification will not be affected by a match

disqualification received later while that competitor is participating in

a Shoot-Off or other side match.

It would seem that if a shoot off DQ doesn't prevent your main match score from counting I don't see how a DQ offense for any other reason would prevent your score from counting so long as it took place after the completion of you last stage. The fact that other shooters may still be shooting has no bearing on the situation as each person's "match" is individual, just as each person's stage attempt is individual.

To add to it, we have a definition for when the stage is complete ("Range is clear") that clarify what happens when you do something like drop your gun. If you drop your gun, regardless of whether it's after showing clear or not, before the command of RIC you get DQ'd. If the RO calls RIC and your gun falls out one second later, it's not a DQ provided you follow the proper procedure and let an RO retrieve it.

So, when is your match really complete and what do we do about DQ infractions that occur after that point?

I'm sure plenty of folks will disagree, but as I read it the shooter's match was complete and any DQ offense should not prevent his scores from standing. Thoughts?

[mactiger]

The match is not officially over until the Match Director has declared the scores to be final. See 6.5.3.

Rule 11.3.2 also mentions this in regard to arbitrations. The match starts on the first day that competitors shoot for score (note that there isn't a specific time listed here--it's the first day, so if you are at the range gearing up and have a safety problem, you can be DQ'd) and ends when the MD declares the scores as final.

So, to answer your question, just because you've finished shooting all the stages doesn't mean the match is over, and any safety problems you may have, as in your example, subject you to disqualification.

This is the reason that Nationals used to hold the shoot-offs the day after the awards ceremony. No chance of having a safety problem and losing the main match, because it was officially over.

Troy

[G-ManBart]

The match is not officially over until the Match Director has declared the scores to be final. See 6.5.3.

Rule 11.3.2 also mentions this in regard to arbitrations. The match starts on the first day that competitors shoot for score (note that there isn't a specific time listed here--it's the first day, so if you are at the range gearing up and have a safety problem, you can be DQ'd) and ends when the MD declares the scores as final.

So, to answer your question, just because you've finished shooting all the stages doesn't mean the match is over, and any safety problems you may have, as in your example, subject you to disqualification.

This is the reason that Nationals used to hold the shoot-offs the day after the awards ceremony. No chance of having a safety problem and losing the main match, because it was officially over.

Troy

I understand that the match is not over, but that doesn't mean that the shooter's match isn't over. Obviously (or so it seems) a DQ offense before any stages are shot would prevent a competitor from shooting any remaining stages (all of them), but that doesn't really define what happens if there are no remaining stages.

The only thing that I can see as possibly being binding would be that while the competitor had completed all of his stage attempts there is always the possibility that a problem with one of the stages could have forced his squad to reshoot a stage. Still, I'm thinking that it might not be a bad idea to clearly define this in the DQ portion of the rules. Something like "A DQ offense committed at any point until the MD declares the results final will count as a match DQ regardless of whether all stage attempts have been completed"....or similar.

At Nationals last year they had the S&W side match on one of the bays. I don't think an AD there would have DQ'd you from the match even though it was on the same set of ranges and controlled by the same organizing body, but that's probably a discussion for it's own thread.

[Joe4d]

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity DURING an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

As Mactiger stated "During a match" is defined by 6.5.3

I dont see how it could be any other way, after range is clear people are still walking around with guns, safety rules still need to be enforced.

[XRe]

Its clear to the rest of us, Chris...

[McGunner]

I'm a little confused on one thing. If the DQ happened after the shooter was done shooting the match, and his scores must not be deleted from the match results as per 10.3.3, weres does that leave the shooter. Did the match count?

Matt

[ChuckS]

I'm a little confused on one thing. If the DQ happened after the shooter was done shooting the match, and his scores must not be deleted from the match results as per 10.3.3, weres does that leave the shooter. Did the match count?

Matt

Scores for a competitor who has received a match disqualification must

not be deleted from match results, and match results must not be

declared final by the Match Director, until the time limit prescribed in

Rule 11.3.1 has passed, provided no appeal to arbitration on any matter

has been submitted to the Range Master (or his delegate).

By 10.3.3, the scored do get deleted but only when it is sure the DQ stands.

Later,

Chuck

[G-ManBart]

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity DURING an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

As Mactiger stated "During a match" is defined by 6.5.3

I dont see how it could be any other way, after range is clear people are still walking around with guns, safety rules still need to be enforced.

10.3.5 Scores for a competitor who has completed a “pre-match” or main

match without a match disqualification will not be affected by a match

disqualification received later while that competitor is participating in

a Shoot-Off or other side match.

It would be very possible to finish your last stage, go shoot a side match while other people are still shooting the main match and before the MD declares the scores as final, have an AD, but not be disqualified because of the rule above. It's very clear, from this alone, that when the match is over for a competitor is not set in stone by one particular event (MD declaring results final).

[Nik Habicht]

Chris,

I don't think so. 10.3.5 exists to protect a Nationals (or an area match) finish in case a competitor dq's during a shoot-off or sidematch held at a later time. That word "later" is important -- it states that in order for the protection to apply, the two events -- prematch, match, or sidematch -- must take place at different times. This is one of the reasons why in recent years Nationals shootoffs were typically held the morning after the pistol match finished -- to ensure a separation between the matches.

If the sidematch is a stage during the regular match --- the protection of 10.3.5 does not apply. By the same token, classifiers are not submitted to USPSA for shooters who dq from the match after shooting the classifier.

You also can't cherry-pick a particular rule to fit your argument, rather you need to read all the rules that pertain to the situation, in order to figure out what the rulebook writers really meant -- that was the biggest lesson learned from the CRO course....

[G-ManBart]

Chris,

I don't think so. 10.3.5 exists to protect a Nationals (or an area match) finish in case a competitor dq's during a shoot-off or sidematch held at a later time. That word "later" is important -- it states that in order for the protection to apply, the two events -- prematch, match, or sidematch -- must take place at different times. This is one of the reasons why in recent years Nationals shootoffs were typically held the morning after the pistol match finished -- to ensure a separation between the matches.

If the sidematch is a stage during the regular match --- the protection of 10.3.5 does not apply. By the same token, classifiers are not submitted to USPSA for shooters who dq from the match after shooting the classifier.

You also can't cherry-pick a particular rule to fit your argument, rather you need to read all the rules that pertain to the situation, in order to figure out what the rulebook writers really meant -- that was the biggest lesson learned from the CRO course....

Nik,

The question is how do we define "later"? Is it after all competitors have finished and the scores posted as final? Is it after a competitor has finished all of his/her stages and then goes to the side match? Depending on your viewpoint both are "later". If I finish all my stages, go have a cold water and check my scores then walk over to a side event, it's "later". A prematch event isn't "later" so I think that has to be handled by itself. As my earlier example of the side match at last years Nat's...it was going on while the main match was taking place...that's probably a different, though related question. From the narrow interpretation I'm seeing folks take here, an AD at that side event would have been a DQ because the match wasn't complete....if that's the case people need to know about it. Lots of bigger matches have side matches or shoot offs that take place while the scores are posted for the 1hr protest period. So is that "later" or is "later" only after the MD has declared the scores final? If I've just had the match of my life I'm sure not going to shoot a side match that's taking place during the review period if I could still DQ even though I've shot all of the stages.

Just so there's no confusion, I'm not saying I think it should or shouldn't be a DQ if someone handles ammo in the safety area after finishing their last stage. I'm saying the rule is fuzzy and shouldn't be. I see what amounts to contradictory rules and I'm not at all trying to cherry pick, but when one rule can or does contradict another, it needs to be a clear exception specified in the rules....that's all.

To take it another step further, and illustrate why there needs to be a clear line defined as to when a competitor has completed the match, consider another situation. Say I've finished all my stages, safety put all my gear away, checked my scores and I'm hanging out in the parking lot near the score shed BSing with my buddies. Someone I don't know drives up and hits my truck as they're parking. They get out and I say "what the F were you thinking you A-hole". A match official hears this, walks over and DQ's me for unsportsmanlike conduct. That's crazy, but by your strict definition, it would be within the rules. I'd say that no way, no how that should be a DQ. It's not related to any course of fire or any safety violation, but because the MD hasn't declared the scores are final I can be DQ'd. Maybe someone has a grudge against you and starts an argument to try and get you to react knowing you could get popped for unsportsmanlike conduct during the 1hr period??? Yeah, it's unlikely, but something that's clearly important needs to be clear and not fuzzy. R,

[el pres]

When does a competitor's match end, well after he shot his last stage he could have gone straight to the

side match while other shooters were still shooting the main match. Getting a DQ at the side match, his main

match would be over and the DQ would not count towards it even though the scores were not finalized.

That said, it was a good observation of match rules but the OP was a legit DQ and anything else is just picking

apart of rules to suit .. I dont even know why we would bring this up, as a USPSA shooter, one thing we have

to know is, No Ammo in the safe area, never. Even if I was at the range at a non match weekend I could not bring

myself to handle ammo at the safe area fearing the DQ karma ??

[ima45dv8]

So what if it's a local Level I match where the scores aren't processed and finalized for a day or two?

(just muddying the waters a bit...)

[G-ManBart]

It wouldn't be too hard to add something to the Range is Clear definition along the lines of "if this was a competitor's final stage of the match their match is complete, but they are still bound by the provisions of section 10.3 until the MD has declared the scores as final".

On the topic of shoot offs, the rules don't say they take place "later" they say they take place "separately" when you look under the match structure section. That doesn't mesh very well with the concept of "later" as it pertains to DQ's.

6.1.6 Shoot-Off – An event conducted separately from a match. Eligible

competitors compete directly against each other by simultaneously

shooting at separate but equal target arrays in a process of elimination

[G-ManBart]

So what if it's a local Level I match where the scores aren't processed and finalized for a day or two?

(just muddying the waters a bit...)

LOL...well done!

Seriously, I don't want anyone to think I have a 'tude about this. It just seems that it could be a little more clear. I know you can't get any set of rules perfect, but if we can add a line or two and make a potential issue/question go away it's worth looking at for the next update.

I can just see a big match with a side event that isn't "later" where a big name shooter has an AD or puts one over the backstop at the side event and winds up winning the match or their division, or gets DQ'd....it'd be ugly either way and not worth the controversy.

[G-ManBart]

I dont even know why we would bring this up, as a USPSA shooter, one thing we have

to know is, No Ammo in the safe area, never.

Ah....that's not what the rule book says.

[Nik Habicht]

It wouldn't be too hard to add something to the Range is Clear definition along the lines of "if this was a competitor's final stage of the match their match is complete, but they are still bound by the provisions of section 10.3 until the MD has declared the scores as final".

And that helps how? If they DQ during a sidematch now, they're still bound by 10.3, hence they're disqualified from the main match.....

....it also wouldn't --- and probably shouldn't --- help the competitor in your opening premise, who was dq'd for handling ammo at a safe table after finishing his match....

On the topic of shoot offs, the rules don't say they take place "later" they say they take place "separately" when you look under the match structure section. That doesn't mesh very well with the concept of "later" as it pertains to DQ's.

6.1.6 Shoot-Off – An event conducted separately from a match. Eligible

competitors compete directly against each other by simultaneously

shooting at separate but equal target arrays in a process of elimination

Separately doesn't necessarily mean simultaneously. Many things still come down to proper match management. If I were to have a simultaneous sidematch at any level of match, it would be in a separate location, and would exist as a separate event -- i.e. it would not fall under the area of control or responsibility of the match MD, RM and staff....

[Nik Habicht]

So what if it's a local Level I match where the scores aren't processed and finalized for a day or two?

(just muddying the waters a bit...)

I'd say you run the risk of a match DQ until the stages are torn down and the range is returned to the control of the hosting facility. Realistically, that's never been a problem locally, and we've recovered the odd dropped gun during teardown, where someone forgot to bag in the safety area prior to helping with putting props away.....

[G-ManBart]

It wouldn't be too hard to add something to the Range is Clear definition along the lines of "if this was a competitor's final stage of the match their match is complete, but they are still bound by the provisions of section 10.3 until the MD has declared the scores as final".

And that helps how? If they DQ during a sidematch now, they're still bound by 10.3, hence they're disqualified from the main match.....

....it also wouldn't --- and probably shouldn't --- help the competitor in your opening premise, who was dq'd for handling ammo at a safe table after finishing his match....

If they DQ at the side match they'd be protected under the provisions already in place for side matches and shootoffs. I probably should have added the side match/shoot off section citation as well....easy enough to fix.

I'm not trying to "help" the shooter in the opening premise....just clarify it. So yes, with that provision added they'd be DQ'd.

On the topic of shoot offs, the rules don't say they take place "later" they say they take place "separately" when you look under the match structure section. That doesn't mesh very well with the concept of "later" as it pertains to DQ's.

6.1.6 Shoot-Off – An event conducted separately from a match. Eligible

competitors compete directly against each other by simultaneously

shooting at separate but equal target arrays in a process of elimination

Separately doesn't necessarily mean simultaneously. Many things still come down to proper match management. If I were to have a simultaneous sidematch at any level of match, it would be in a separate location, and would exist as a separate event -- i.e. it would not fall under the area of control or responsibility of the match MD, RM and staff....

Of course separately doesn't necessarily mean simultaneously, but that does happen. If/when possible your way of doing it is by far the best...no doubt about it. R,

Edited August 30, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Nik Habicht]

Nik,

The question is how do we define "later"? Is it after all competitors have finished and the scores posted as final? Is it after a competitor has finished all of his/her stages and then goes to the side match? Depending on your viewpoint both are "later". If I finish all my stages, go have a cold water and check my scores then walk over to a side event, it's "later". A prematch event isn't "later" so I think that has to be handled by itself.

No the pre-match is earlier, so if you DQ from the main match, your pre-match scores could stand.....

As my earlier example of the side match at last years Nat's...it was going on while the main match was taking place...that's probably a different, though related question. From the narrow interpretation I'm seeing folks take here, an AD at that side event would have been a DQ because the match wasn't complete....if that's the case people need to know about it. Lots of bigger matches have side matches or shoot offs that take place while the scores are posted for the 1hr protest period. So is that "later" or is "later" only after the MD has declared the scores final? If I've just had the match of my life I'm sure not going to shoot a side match that's taking place during the review period if I could still DQ even though I've shot all of the stages.

That gets us back to match management again. If the sidematch is set-up in a distinct location, and it's clearly spelled out that it is NOT part of the main match and isn't controlled by the main match staff --- then competitors have a free pass. If that's not the case, then competitors are potentially risking their main match score. Caveat competitor!

Just so there's no confusion, I'm not saying I think it should or shouldn't be a DQ if someone handles ammo in the safety area after finishing their last stage. I'm saying the rule is fuzzy and shouldn't be. I see what amounts to contradictory rules and I'm not at all trying to cherry pick, but when one rule can or does contradict another, it needs to be a clear exception specified in the rules....that's all.

So you really have no opinion on a competitor handling ammo at the safe table? Really?

To take it another step further, and illustrate why there needs to be a clear line defined as to when a competitor has completed the match, consider another situation. Say I've finished all my stages, safety put all my gear away, checked my scores and I'm hanging out in the parking lot near the score shed BSing with my buddies. Someone I don't know drives up and hits my truck as they're parking. They get out and I say "what the F were you thinking you A-hole". A match official hears this, walks over and DQ's me for unsportsmanlike conduct. That's crazy, but by your strict definition, it would be within the rules. I'd say that no way, no how that should be a DQ. It's not related to any course of fire or any safety violation, but because the MD hasn't declared the scores are final I can be DQ'd. Maybe someone has a grudge against you and starts an argument to try and get you to react knowing you could get popped for unsportsmanlike conduct during the 1hr period??? Yeah, it's unlikely, but something that's clearly important needs to be clear and not fuzzy. R,

I think you're reaching pretty far here. You still have the option of arbitration. (Not to mention, the option of being the polite and reasonable man in a crazy situation..... )

I also have slightly more faith in match officials --- I can't think of an RM who'd dq you for that. (And you've still got the NROI complaint procedure, if that really were to happen....)

[Nik Habicht]

One of the reasons I find rules discussions here so valuable is that they often illuminate problems in search of a solution. While you started out looking for a rules change or clarification; I walk away from this discussion having a much better plan for incorporating a simultaneous side-match into a USPSA match. If we ever revive the Mid-Atlantic Sectional, and if we get interest for a sidematch, we may hold it as a separate or as a simultaneous but separate event --- in either case we'll clearly communicate the policies to the competitors.....

[G-ManBart]

So what if it's a local Level I match where the scores aren't processed and finalized for a day or two?

(just muddying the waters a bit...)

I'd say you run the risk of a match DQ until the stages are torn down and the range is returned to the control of the hosting facility. Realistically, that's never been a problem locally, and we've recovered the odd dropped gun during teardown, where someone forgot to bag in the safety area prior to helping with putting props away.....

Yeah, but taken literally it doesn't matter if the stages are torn down, it doesn't matter if you're done shooting for the day, all that matters is whether the scores have been declared final by the MD. I think it'd be a bit much to DQ someone after the stages are torn down, but it sure seems like it would be possible using a strict interpretation of the rules.

[uscbigdawg]

Bart,

Here's one for you. A competitor is shooting a Level 2 Sectional and volunteers to RO the match on the second day after shooting the entire match on the first day. During the first day he gets in to a more than mild disagreement with another RO and rather than escalate or cause any uncomfort the following day gets a hold of the match director at the end of the day to let him know that he will not be RO'ing and then pays the full match fee (match fee was discounted for RO'ing).

Competitor then finds out that he was DQ'ed for Unsportsmanlike Conduct for not RO'ing. After discussions with USPSA and NROI, the resolution was that the only way that the scores for the match would have been good is if the MD reverses his decision. Out of spite, the MD refuses to reverse the decision.

Competitor is f(*&'ed in the rear regardless.

I don't know if these rules have changed, but can tell you that this has happened, as I know the competitor, really well and to date, NOTHING has been done.

Rich

[G-ManBart]

Nik,

The question is how do we define "later"? Is it after all competitors have finished and the scores posted as final? Is it after a competitor has finished all of his/her stages and then goes to the side match? Depending on your viewpoint both are "later". If I finish all my stages, go have a cold water and check my scores then walk over to a side event, it's "later". A prematch event isn't "later" so I think that has to be handled by itself.

No the pre-match is earlier, so if you DQ from the main match, your pre-match scores could stand.....

Sure, that's why I was saying the pre-match is different...it still stands. They do say "pre-match or main match"....so it's still back to completing the main match before the "later" side match or shoot off.

As my earlier example of the side match at last years Nat's...it was going on while the main match was taking place...that's probably a different, though related question. From the narrow interpretation I'm seeing folks take here, an AD at that side event would have been a DQ because the match wasn't complete....if that's the case people need to know about it. Lots of bigger matches have side matches or shoot offs that take place while the scores are posted for the 1hr protest period. So is that "later" or is "later" only after the MD has declared the scores final? If I've just had the match of my life I'm sure not going to shoot a side match that's taking place during the review period if I could still DQ even though I've shot all of the stages.

That gets us back to match management again. If the sidematch is set-up in a distinct location, and it's clearly spelled out that it is NOT part of the main match and isn't controlled by the main match staff --- then competitors have a free pass. If that's not the case, then competitors are potentially risking their main match score. Caveat competitor!

Absolutely, it needs to be clear whether a side match is or is not part of the match. I don't recall anything about that at last years Nat's where the side match was on the same grounds and at the same time so I'm not sure how that would be handled. I wouldn't want to find out the hard way!

Just so there's no confusion, I'm not saying I think it should or shouldn't be a DQ if someone handles ammo in the safety area after finishing their last stage. I'm saying the rule is fuzzy and shouldn't be. I see what amounts to contradictory rules and I'm not at all trying to cherry pick, but when one rule can or does contradict another, it needs to be a clear exception specified in the rules....that's all.

So you really have no opinion on a competitor handling ammo at the safe table? Really?

Oh, I'm against anyone handling ammo in a safe area...no doubt. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a DQ, I'm just saying that I can see how an argument could be made that it was after they'd completed the match....that's all.

To take it another step further, and illustrate why there needs to be a clear line defined as to when a competitor has completed the match, consider another situation. Say I've finished all my stages, safety put all my gear away, checked my scores and I'm hanging out in the parking lot near the score shed BSing with my buddies. Someone I don't know drives up and hits my truck as they're parking. They get out and I say "what the F were you thinking you A-hole". A match official hears this, walks over and DQ's me for unsportsmanlike conduct. That's crazy, but by your strict definition, it would be within the rules. I'd say that no way, no how that should be a DQ. It's not related to any course of fire or any safety violation, but because the MD hasn't declared the scores are final I can be DQ'd. Maybe someone has a grudge against you and starts an argument to try and get you to react knowing you could get popped for unsportsmanlike conduct during the 1hr period??? Yeah, it's unlikely, but something that's clearly important needs to be clear and not fuzzy. R,

I think you're reaching pretty far here. You still have the option of arbitration. (Not to mention, the option of being the polite and reasonable man in a crazy situation..... )

I also have slightly more faith in match officials --- I can't think of an RM who'd dq you for that. (And you've still got the NROI complaint procedure, if that really were to happen....)

Certainly that would be a bit much, but I don't see how it would be prevented by the rules as they stand....I'm sure that's not the intent, but that's they way it appears to be written.

Edited August 30, 2009 by G-ManBart

[G-ManBart]

One of the reasons I find rules discussions here so valuable is that they often illuminate problems in search of a solution. While you started out looking for a rules change or clarification; I walk away from this discussion having a much better plan for incorporating a simultaneous side-match into a USPSA match. If we ever revive the Mid-Atlantic Sectional, and if we get interest for a sidematch, we may hold it as a separate or as a simultaneous but separate event --- in either case we'll clearly communicate the policies to the competitors.....

That's exactly what I hoped would happen when I asked the question

[G-ManBart]

Bart,

Here's one for you. A competitor is shooting a Level 2 Sectional and volunteers to RO the match on the second day after shooting the entire match on the first day. During the first day he gets in to a more than mild disagreement with another RO and rather than escalate or cause any uncomfort the following day gets a hold of the match director at the end of the day to let him know that he will not be RO'ing and then pays the full match fee (match fee was discounted for RO'ing).

Competitor then finds out that he was DQ'ed for Unsportsmanlike Conduct for not RO'ing. After discussions with USPSA and NROI, the resolution was that the only way that the scores for the match would have been good is if the MD reverses his decision. Out of spite, the MD refuses to reverse the decision.

Competitor is f(*&'ed in the rear regardless.

I don't know if these rules have changed, but can tell you that this has happened, as I know the competitor, really well and to date, NOTHING has been done.

Rich

All I can say is ouch!