Spray sticky on hands, Legal ?

[Flexmoney]

People have been spitting on their hand or rubbing them in dirt before a fight...for centuries now. (I know, I saw it in the movies!!)

[Chris Christian]

When you start calling Rules based upon individual perception/interpretation/personal bias... you no longer have Rules. When you don't have Rules you have anarchy. When anarchy arrives, you no longer have a valid sport. A shooter in IDPA should be able to shoot the same COF in Virginia, Florida, California, or any other state and get called the same way. When that fails to happen... IDPA will be replaced by a similar game... and if those Rules in the "new" game are called consistently... it will flourish while IDPA dies. I like IDPA. I don't want to see it die. Let's trim up the Rule Book so things are clear... and can be called consistently.

Chris Christian

[Shootingirons45]

So..my perception is that 99.9% of ya'll don't wear these "shoot me first" vests on a day to day basis. So that is competition only equipment? Or how about most folks don't walk around daily with eye and ear protection. So, is that competition only as well? Where do you draw the line? I'd suggest that folks abide by the IDPA rulebook, not ones perception of what is, and is not competition only gear. This is a game...period.

[Steve Koski]

I think talc and hand stick-um are clearly competition only equipment, as is wearing a shooting glove.

[Bones]

Duly noted Koski. Then, you shouldn't use it.

Every one plays for their own reasons and obtains satisfaction in their own way. IDPA is not in need of salvation because it is not dead, nor is it dying. I've been to a lot of action shooting matches across the country, and even some outside the US. I have yet to find one shooting sport that is completely consistent or rational. The closest thing to anarchy I've seen is written on internet forums.

Ask the MD if you're not sure about something, oblige his/her wishes and do your best. The most prepared shooter will always win.

Craig

[Bones]

People have been spitting on their hand or rubbing them in dirt before a fight...for centuries now. (I know, I saw it in the movies!!)

That presupposes knowledge of the fight, right Flex? What if the game were intended to mimic the absence of that knowledge as much as practically possible?

Just a thought.

Craig

[Loves2Shoot]

What if the game were intended to mimic the absence of that knowledge as much as practically possible?

Just a thought.

Craig

Than you wouldn't have a walk through telling you EXACTLY what to do and EXACTLY how to do it.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Loves2Shoot

[lugnut]

What if the game were intended to mimic the absence of that knowledge as much as practically possible?

Just a thought.

Craig

Than you wouldn't have a walk through telling you EXACTLY what to do and EXACTLY how to do it.

Bingo. Guys it's damn game. People can say it tactical this tactical that is just BS. If it's not spelled out clearly in the rule book or clarified by HQ then don't just make stuff up.

However I agree 100% with Craig on this- "The most prepared shooter will always win. " Let people get distracted with ways to win with things like this .... I'll work on my shooting/movement/reloads, etc!

[Loves2Shoot]

IDPA is not training for the "streets" so any argument that contains "you can't do it because you wouldn't do it on the street" should be ignored. They have a rule book, those are the rules for the game.

Really? I just double-checked the IDPA MAIN WEBSITE, and that is NOT the impression I got about the sport at all; the very first words on the site are:

"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters. "

Are you saying that no one will read "training for the street" into IDPA's stated purpose of: "simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters." ?? Coulda fooled me. I am the only one reading it this way?

Link also starts out: "The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not permitted in this sport."

True, the rules don't cover everything. The gaps in the rules are the reason there is the FTDR. Using "competition only" equipment = FTDR. It is clear that grip spray is part of the "competition only" equipment to which the above-linked site refers.

The impression they try to give you to "sell" their sport, sounds like you are buying what they are selling if you honestly buy it. There are many things that are "must do's" in IDPA that you would NEVER do "on the street."

I'm glad you stated the "competition only" equipment thing. That is silly if you think about it, as for me, my vest, holster, mag pouches and gun are "competition only" equipment, as they are specifically legal for IDPA, and IDPA is a competition and they only thing I use them for. I think that for a lot of people, that would be an accurate statement. I don't use anything fancy for IDPA, nothing that even comes close to bordering the rules. I do believe there is any advantage in using any gear that is not clearly IDPA legal, and with the exception of the magazine capacity, the exact same gear could win any IPSC match, and it does. The only substantial difference is the belt going through the loops in IDPA and the double belt system in IPSC, and that doesn't make a difference from a usage standpoint.

If we are honest and know history, IDPA was developed as a sport that "is not IPSC." When you create something with such an emphasis of not being something else, that causes a lot of issues, and I personally think is one of the reasons for a rulebook that is not clear.

Being dogmatic about it being a "self defense" sport doesn't help the sport. I've train with top LEO and Military instructors and some of the foundational requirements of IDPA are not tactically sound.

I like IDPA as a sport, and I have fun playing it. I do wish that a few things were changed that made more sense, but it isn't my sport to change, so I play by the rule there and ask if there is anything I might do that may be questionable.

[The Antichrome]

Heck, I think it should be required;-)

Its really just anti-perspirant and we all (I hope) use that.

[CSEMARTIN]

In over twenty major matches, I never came across a Match Director or Safety Officer that had a problem with Pro Grip. At some point, some place, a Match Director is going to say it's against the "spirit of IDPA". It's that simple. However the MD decides to interpret the rules on that day of any given match is the law.

Those of you that continue to shoot IDPA know this. Accept it, or switch to USPSA full-time like I did.

Edited August 29, 2009 by CSEMARTIN

[Glock3422]

This whole thread seems silly, spurious. Why is it folks are so worried about what others do instead of focusing on improving their own performance? The rulebook is there. Read it. Do not subtract from the rules and play by the rules. On the other hand, do not make up "rules" you think "ought" to be there. I guarantee you this much. You could hamstring the better shooters and they will still beat you. Why? Because they are concerned with performance and not perception.

+1000

Half the people worried about this don't shoot the game. Half the people worried about this would like to proscribe the flavor of Kool-Aid served at Nationals in Tulsa. The third half are rolling their eyes and wondering, "Don't these people have anything of substance to concern them?"

Sticky Spray? Puleeese.

The straw man side issues thrown into the pot to cause a circular motion just feed the intellectual dishonesty. If someone beats you with sticky spray, you need to take up checkers.

[Glock3422]

When you start calling Rules based upon individual perception/interpretation/personal bias... you no longer have Rules. When you don't have Rules you have anarchy. When anarchy arrives, you no longer have a valid sport. A shooter in IDPA should be able to shoot the same COF in Virginia, Florida, California, or any other state and get called the same way. When that fails to happen... IDPA will be replaced by a similar game... and if those Rules in the "new" game are called consistently... it will flourish while IDPA dies. I like IDPA. I don't want to see it die. Let's trim up the Rule Book so things are clear... and can be called consistently.

Chris Christian

If the leveling of the playing field and consistency across the world are the primary considerations, sticky spray is not the best place to start.

[Glock3422]

In over twenty major matches, I never came across a Match Director or Safety Officer that had a problem with Pro Grip. At some point, some place, a Match Director is going to say it's against the "spirit of IDPA". It's that simple. However the MD decides to interpret the rules on that day of any given match is the law.

Those of you that continue to shoot IDPA know this. Accept it, or switch to USPSA full-time like I did.

Your contribution begs the question of "Why?"

If you no longer shoot IDPA, why do you care what is or is not required by IDPA? More pot stirring.

[Flexmoney]

People have been spitting on their hand or rubbing them in dirt before a fight...for centuries now. (I know, I saw it in the movies!!)

That presupposes knowledge of the fight, right Flex? What if the game were intended to mimic the absence of that knowledge as much as practically possible?

Just a thought.

Craig

I've never seen an IDPA match sneak up on somebody!

Then again...I am in condition red all the time.

[ Everybody...if my joking isn't getting thru...please relax. You all know that the IDPA rule book is a bit open. IDPA knows that. They seem OK with it. ]

[Flexmoney]

Ask the MD if you're not sure about something, oblige his/her wishes and do your best. The most prepared shooter will always win.

There you go.

[Flexmoney]

Re-reading this...I think we are done here. (Yeah...I know...I took the last word. )

If anybody has any fact to add, we'd be happy to open it back up. We don't need a bunch of folks going back and forth at each other.

(I hope I didn't encourage that, I was trying to keep it light hearted.)

Folks ...remember, this is the IDPA forum.

Please check this out: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67433

- Admin.

[Flexmoney]

I'm opening this back up because of new info. Please keep the discussion on track. - Admin.

Flex, I did talk to Robert Ray when he shot in my bay at the MVSA Regional here in AR on Sat about the pro grip and he said it was legal based on he saw it as the same as grip tape or the like, not sure if you want to post that or not as it's hear-say but I thought I'd let you know.

Thanks,

Matt

[Aristotle]

Interesting, thanks for the update Flex.

[PHolsted]

I'm opening this back up because of new info. Please keep the discussion on track. - Admin.

Flex, I did talk to Robert Ray when he shot in my bay at the MVSA Regional here in AR on Sat about the pro grip and he said it was legal based on he saw it as the same as grip tape or the like, not sure if you want to post that or not as it's hear-say but I thought I'd let you know.

Thanks,

Matt

I had a feeling it would lean this way.

Just a few threads down from this was a thread I started about gloves. It was ruled from IDPA that gloves are allowed. It would not be far of a stretch to see this also accepted.

But to me I see it as competition only equipment.

Edited August 31, 2009 by PHolsted

[atbarr]

It would be nice if Robert Ray would post his thoughts in this thread.

A.T.

[Duane Thomas]

I sent him a link. I'm sure he will. He's always been very responsive.

[PHolsted]

I'm opening this back up because of new info. Please keep the discussion on track. - Admin.

Flex, I did talk to Robert Ray when he shot in my bay at the MVSA Regional here in AR on Sat about the pro grip and he said it was legal based on he saw it as the same as grip tape or the like, not sure if you want to post that or not as it's hear-say but I thought I'd let you know.

Thanks,

Matt

I would think that adding grip tape, or any other Division legal grip aid to your fire arm would be just that an approved modification to the firearm per the rule book. I would think that any type of temporary roll/spray on grip enhancing product that a shooter uses just at a match would fall under competition only gear.

It has been mentioned that this may fall under a safety concern, but my questions to that is, if you know you have a problem with not being able to safely handle your firearm without having to add some type of grip enhancing spray on our hands then why not make the needed modification to your firearm to permanently solve this safety issues?

When I first made the switch to the XD from a 1911 I had problems with not being able to get a firm grip on the gun. I loved the feel of it and how it shot but it always seemed like it was sliding around in my hands. So I tried several types of grip tape and end of story. 4 years and a few sets up grip tape all is well.

Patrick

[detonics]

Matt is correct. He asked me about this on Saturday at the Shake, Rattle and Roll IDPA match at the MVSA club in Hot Springs, (thread drift) which is a really great match. The people at MVSA consistently do a great job and always have some fun, challenging stages. I highly recommend going.

Basically I don't see the need in this product yet I don't see any harm in it either. You can do the same thing with chalk, baby powder or range dirt for that matter. One of the the things to keep in mind is the founders desire to not see "competition only products" goes hand in hand with idea that we don't want to see an equipment race in IDPA. The idea is to not have products that are "have to have" for competing in IDPA. I hardly see the use of spray sticky as going down that road. I will dodge the whole Glock 34/35 thing though.

I hope this helps.

Robert Ray

[Duane Thomas]

How's that for service?