Which is the best Billet upper receiver

[jnikoley]

I recently picked up a JP-15 lower receiver from the RM3G prize table, and have almost enough "spare parts" from my current AR rifle to build a new one. I will need an upper receiver, and am leaning towards a billet upper to pair with an 18" Firebird Walther/Lothar barrel. I have found that there are many different billet uppers to choose from, so I need some help figuring out which one to pick. Here's a list of the billet uppers (google search) I have found so far:

Larue Stealth 7075 billet A3 upper, $275, http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=56

VLTOR MUR 7075 billet A4 upper, $199-229, http://www.vltor.com/mur.htm

Sun Devil 6061 billet upper, $170-220, http://www.sundevilmfg.com/products.php

Alexander Arms 7075 billet upper kit w/bolt carrier, $325, http://www.alexanderarms.com/siteshopper.h...=15&item=80

SI Defense A4, 7075 or 7050 billet upper, 7075 - $275, 7050 - $475, http://shop.si-defense.com/SI_Defense_AR_1...%20ar-15-a3.htm, http://www.sonju.net/photogallery.html

Black Rain Ordnance 7075 A4 billet upper, $???, http://blackrainordnance.com/wordpress/?page_id=7

Thanks

Edited August 24, 2009 by jnikoley

[MarkCO]

Is there some reason why you are not considering a JP or Firebird, which are two of the best?

[jnikoley]

Is there some reason why you are not considering a JP or Firebird, which are two of the best?

I haven't seen any billet offerings from them, and at this point, I'm leaning toward billet due to the fact that most of them are thicker/beefier designs. I hold the belief that a stronger upper will provide a more "solid" relationship between the barrel, receiver, and scope (although It's probably overkill). I don't hold the belief that the upper/lower need to be "solid", I just don't see how that could affect accuracy, although I want whatever upper I pick to match up nicely with little to no gap between the upper and my JP lower (for aesthetics).

I know JP and Firebird make good products and support our sport, and that's why I ordered the Lothar barrel from Jim (Firebird), and am putting on a JP Cooley comp and JP gas block on my new build. If I do buy a forged upper, I'll definitely consider them.

[jasmap]

Is there some reason why you are not considering a JP or Firebird, which are two of the best?

I haven't seen any billet offerings from them, and at this point, I'm leaning toward billet due to the fact that most of them are thicker/beefier designs. I hold the belief that a stronger upper will provide a more "solid" relationship between the barrel, receiver, and scope (although It's probably overkill). I don't hold the belief that the upper/lower need to be "solid", I just don't see how that could affect accuracy, although I want whatever upper I pick to match up nicely with little to no gap between the upper and my JP lower (for aesthetics).

I know JP and Firebird make good products and support our sport, and that's why I ordered the Lothar barrel from Jim (Firebird), and am putting on a JP Cooley comp and JP gas block on my new build. If I do buy a forged upper, I'll definitely consider them.

I don't know if Firebird has any available but they do make a billet upper and lower. They are badass so I would recomend giving him a call or email.

[uscbigdawg]

I like the HKS (or TKS...can't remember) upper that's on my current 3-Gun rifle. It's the same design as the Sun Devil. Basically, the only one's I'd ever consider:

JP CTR

Larue MUR

Mine

Firebird

Rich

[jnikoley]

Is there some reason why you are not considering a JP or Firebird, which are two of the best?

I haven't seen any billet offerings from them, and at this point, I'm leaning toward billet due to the fact that most of them are thicker/beefier designs. I hold the belief that a stronger upper will provide a more "solid" relationship between the barrel, receiver, and scope (although It's probably overkill). I don't hold the belief that the upper/lower need to be "solid", I just don't see how that could affect accuracy, although I want whatever upper I pick to match up nicely with little to no gap between the upper and my JP lower (for aesthetics).

I know JP and Firebird make good products and support our sport, and that's why I ordered the Lothar barrel from Jim (Firebird), and am putting on a JP Cooley comp and JP gas block on my new build. If I do buy a forged upper, I'll definitely consider them.

I don't know if Firebird has any available but they do make a billet upper and lower. They are badass so I would recomend giving him a call or email.

Thanks, I called him, and will ask about it when he calls me back.

[Charles Bond]

If you are not in a hurry, get a Seekins http://www.seekinsprecision.com/index_p.php?p=arlower. They are not yet available but when they are, they will be the bomb.

[jnikoley]

I like the HKS (or TKS...can't remember) upper that's on my current 3-Gun rifle. It's the same design as the Sun Devil. Basically, the only one's I'd ever consider:

JP CTR

Larue MUR

Mine

Firebird

Rich

Thanks, Rich. I like the design of the TKS/Sun Devil (the ones with the case deflector), the only thing is that they are both 6061, and everything I've researched suggests 7075 is stronger, so I'm leaning more toward the VLTOR MUR, or Larue among the billet offerings.

[jnikoley]

If you are not in a hurry, get a Seekins http://www.seekinsprecision.com/index_p.php?p=arlower. They are not yet available but when they are, they will be the bomb.

Interesting design, it looks like something HR Geiger (designer of the Alien from movie "Alien") would have designed. Looks cool, however, I only saw a lower receiver offered from them. We could probably devote an entire thread about lowers.... I noticed they mentioned they will be coming out with an upper, perhaps I should keep an eye on the site.

Edited August 24, 2009 by jnikoley

[TRUBL]

I know JP is gonna kill me for this.....as I use to work for him and I do think that the JP CTR upper is the best out there.....BUT.....I don't think you can buy just the billet upper from John, it has to be a complete upper (unless he has changed his ways). So, with that being said.....consider the DPMS low pro upper. Made from Extrusion, it is VERY beefy....and is hands down the least expensive uppers out there ($125.00).

Tim

[uscbigdawg]

Ditto. If not for the TKS, it'd be a DPMS Lo-Pro for me.

Rich

[J-Ho]

Is there some reason why you are not considering a JP or Firebird, which are two of the best?

I haven't seen any billet offerings from them, and at this point, I'm leaning toward billet due to the fact that most of them are thicker/beefier designs. I hold the belief that a stronger upper will provide a more "solid" relationship between the barrel, receiver, and scope (although It's probably overkill). I don't hold the belief that the upper/lower need to be "solid", I just don't see how that could affect accuracy, although I want whatever upper I pick to match up nicely with little to no gap between the upper and my JP lower (for aesthetics).

I know JP and Firebird make good products and support our sport, and that's why I ordered the Lothar barrel from Jim (Firebird), and am putting on a JP Cooley comp and JP gas block on my new build. If I do buy a forged upper, I'll definitely consider them.

I don't know if Firebird has any available but they do make a billet upper and lower. They are badass so I would recomend giving him a call or email.

Thanks, I called him, and will ask about it when he calls me back.

The Firebird billet receivers were done in a very limited run. Jim did the first run in sets so I doubt you'll find any uppers for sale. Jim has talked about doing a run of uppers but right now I think he is concentrating on Saigas. JP sells the CTR-02 uppers I think it would be hard to go wrong there.

[THM7]

I am not sure why you want billet, forged is better for a upper (and lower). 7075 is superior to 6061....6061 is easier to machine and cheaper. For what we do it really does not matter much.....but 7075 forged is really the best material to use for upper or lower. Regardless get 7075....

Edited August 24, 2009 by THM7

[jnikoley]

I know JP is gonna kill me for this.....as I use to work for him and I do think that the JP CTR upper is the best out there.....BUT.....I don't think you can buy just the billet upper from John, it has to be a complete upper (unless he has changed his ways). So, with that being said.....consider the DPMS low pro upper. Made from Extrusion, it is VERY beefy....and is hands down the least expensive uppers out there ($125.00).

Tim

I'm not familiar with Extrusion as to how it would compare in strength to a machined billet upper, or a forged one, so although it's a little off topic, can any one familiar with metallurgy offer an opinion as to which process would be better regarding strength/rigidity? Before I consider price, I want to narrow it down by what is the best/strongest. BTW, I did e-mail JP, and believe you are probably right with all the back orders they have to fill for complete rifles. I'll give JP a call though. It never hurts to ask.

Thanks

EDIT: Please disregard my question about extrusion vs. forging, vs. billet. My question was off topic, and I'd rather stay on topic. My apologies.

Edited August 24, 2009 by jnikoley

[THM7]

Forged 7075...hands down.

[jnikoley]

I am not sure why you want billet, forged is better for a upper (and lower). 7075 is superior to 6061....6061 is easier to machine and cheaper. For what we do it really does not matter much.....but 7075 forged is really the best material to use for upper or lower. Regardless get 7075....

Thanks, I'm already decided on 7075 over 6061, as to weather billet or forging is "better", there are so many different opinions, I'd rather leave that topic out of this thread. I'm interested in knowing which billet receivers are known to be good among the three gun crowd, as there are so many out there I haven't heard of. I really don't have a preference over forging or billet, just curious.

[ken hebert]

I recently picked up a JP-15 lower receiver from the RM3G prize table, and have almost enough "spare parts" from my current AR rifle to build a new one. I will need an upper receiver, and am leaning towards a billet upper to pair with an 18" Firebird Walther/Lothar barrel.

Jason, you'd be just as well off by simply adding a Firebird FPX upper to your existing order with Jim and letting him install the barrel for you....

If you remember our squad at RM3G, some of us ran Firebird products with great success. This upper will mate up nicely to the lower you plucked from the prize table, and keep some weight off the rifle vs a somewhat thicker billet upper.

[jnikoley]

I recently picked up a JP-15 lower receiver from the RM3G prize table, and have almost enough "spare parts" from my current AR rifle to build a new one. I will need an upper receiver, and am leaning towards a billet upper to pair with an 18" Firebird Walther/Lothar barrel.

Jason, you'd be just as well off by simply adding a Firebird FPX upper to your existing order with Jim and letting him install the barrel for you....

If you remember our squad at RM3G, some of us ran Firebird products with great success. This upper will mate up nicely to the lower you plucked from the prize table, and keep some weight off the rifle vs a somewhat thicker billet upper.

Thanks Ken. By no means am I set on a billet upper, just doing my homework in advance. My eventual upper purchase will be some time off, so for now at least, I'll have to install the new barrel in my RRA upper, which by itself is a pretty easy task. Whenever I am ready for the new build, I'll definitely want to send in the lower with my barrel and upper to some one of Jim's expertise.

[jnikoley]

Is there some reason why you are not considering a JP or Firebird, which are two of the best?

I haven't seen any billet offerings from them, and at this point, I'm leaning toward billet due to the fact that most of them are thicker/beefier designs. I hold the belief that a stronger upper will provide a more "solid" relationship between the barrel, receiver, and scope (although It's probably overkill). I don't hold the belief that the upper/lower need to be "solid", I just don't see how that could affect accuracy, although I want whatever upper I pick to match up nicely with little to no gap between the upper and my JP lower (for aesthetics).

I know JP and Firebird make good products and support our sport, and that's why I ordered the Lothar barrel from Jim (Firebird), and am putting on a JP Cooley comp and JP gas block on my new build. If I do buy a forged upper, I'll definitely consider them.

I don't know if Firebird has any available but they do make a billet upper and lower. They are badass so I would recomend giving him a call or email.

Thanks, I called him, and will ask about it when he calls me back.

The Firebird billet receivers were done in a very limited run. Jim did the first run in sets so I doubt you'll find any uppers for sale. Jim has talked about doing a run of uppers but right now I think he is concentrating on Saigas. JP sells the CTR-02 uppers I think it would be hard to go wrong there.

Thanks Jason. I'm in no hurry right now, so I'll check the Firebird board from time to time. Good shooting with you, btw. Hopefully you can make it down to Texas some time. Take care.

[TRUBL]

Forged, extruded, billet, 7075, 6061.......guys, it really doesn't matter. REALLY good buzz words though.

You want mass.....thats what you really want.....mass equals strength, the bad news is that it also equals more weight. Make sure of the finish.....all anodizing is not the same. Make sure they call out HARDCOAT anodizing. Milspec is something like .002" thick. Thats the part that makes your upper last longer.

It is really easy to make an upper beefier in and around the area that surrounds the bolt carrier, the trick is when it comes to the cross section area of the charge handle slot, height of the picatinney rail. If an upper is made to milspec.....they are all pretty much the same in that area; THEN forged 7075 wins out. FYI.....the CTR-02 is made from basically a forged billet. That being said, some of these guys out there are making side charge handle uppers and not milling the conventional charge handle slot....or they have a rail that is a little higher than milspec; this will add to the mass in that area.....extra mass equals extra strength. Then, even if it is made out of 6061, it is going to be stronger than a forged mil spec 7075 receiver.

When it comes right down to it.....where do you want the increased mass? near to the scope rail, and, if you want a stiffer body....around the carrier as well. JP's covers that pretty well, so does the low pro. I believe Jim's upper has little more height on hi s rail than most....so it even stiffer. LAR makes a side charge handle upper and that is a mil spec upper with more mass in the upper part of the receiver, so that too would be a very stiff upper as well.

Lots of choices.....for really something that a standard mil spec upper has covered and does very well at for many years.....but still, if you want beefier.....you have lots of options.

[J-Ho]

Forged, extruded, billet, 7075, 6061.......guys, it really doesn't matter. REALLY good buzz words though.

You want mass.....thats what you really want.....mass equals strength, the bad news is that it also equals more weight. Make sure of the finish.....all anodizing is not the same. Make sure they call out HARDCOAT anodizing. Milspec is something like .002" thick. Thats the part that makes your upper last longer.

It is really easy to make an upper beefier in and around the area that surrounds the bolt carrier, the trick is when it comes to the cross section area of the charge handle slot, height of the picatinney rail. If an upper is made to milspec.....they are all pretty much the same in that area; THEN forged 7075 wins out. FYI.....the CTR-02 is made from basically a forged billet. That being said, some of these guys out there are making side charge handle uppers and not milling the conventional charge handle slot....or they have a rail that is a little higher than milspec; this will add to the mass in that area.....extra mass equals extra strength. Then, even if it is made out of 6061, it is going to be stronger than a forged mil spec 7075 receiver.

When it comes right down to it.....where do you want the increased mass? near to the scope rail, and, if you want a stiffer body....around the carrier as well. JP's covers that pretty well, so does the low pro. I believe Jim's upper has little more height on hi s rail than most....so it even stiffer. LAR makes a side charge handle upper and that is a mil spec upper with more mass in the upper part of the receiver, so that too would be a very stiff upper as well.

Lots of choices.....for really something that a standard mil spec upper has covered and does very well at for many years.....but still, if you want beefier.....you have lots of options.

uh, he said Jim's is stiffer. (insert Beevis and Buthead laugh here)

[jnikoley]

In my initial research (google), I did not hit on, and was un-aware that Both the JP CTR-02, and Firebird Precision's receivers were machined from billet, but as I have now been educated, I now know better (both are billet). I spoke with Jim (Firebird), and he had many wise words for me. The advise given to me on this board has also helped me immensely. With my new-found knowledge, I can now confidently state my OWN opinion of which billet upper is the best, and obviously it has to come down to either JP or Firebird. First, I have to say, I just placed an order for a JP CTR-02 upper receiver, however, I have to give the nod for the best to Firebird. This is because I believe that the Firebird millet upper addresses the one weak point of a billet (or any other) upper, and that is that the Firebird upper has more 7075 above the charging handle. So.. why, you may ask, I purchased the JP? I picked the CTR-02 because it's in stock, and that you can't go wrong JP or Firebird, they are both top rate, and support our sport. Although Firebird gets my vote for the best, Jim's operation is much smaller than JP's and combined with the high demand for his product, I may have to wait longer than I prefer to get my greedy hands on the Firebird. JP also makes an excellent product, and both JP and Firebird support 3-gun heavily, and I consider that to be very important when considering a purchase. If you ever meet a sponsor of our sport, thank them, and remember them when you make a purchase. Those who support our sport often take away from their own bottom line due to their dedication to 3-gun even though the quality of their products can easily stand on their own. Two such sponsors are JP and Firebird. Thank you John Paul and Jim Lambert!

-Jason Nikoley

[MarkCO]

Is there some reason why you are not considering a JP or Firebird, which are two of the best?

Glad I was able to point you towards two of the best in the business...enjoy!