Resjudicata Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I haven't tried metal clips. I'll ask around locally to see if anyone has any I can try. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigosaur Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I bought Rimz, years ago ... nice for the 610 ... not so much for the 625. That led me to try the metal ones for the 610 (I forget where I got 'em now) ... I like those better, now. Anyhow, once or twice, I've gone to the range (just testing loads or goofing off) and forgot moon-clips. I just load it like a .38, and shoot ... no problems. Is there a reason your 610 doesn't headspace on the case-mouth? Anyhow, it's free to try it. I'll guess ya'll have the same problems. Primers seated too deep? Have ya tried any factory ammo, lately? What brand of primers are ya using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'm shooting (or trying to) 40 S&W in the 610. That is why it isn't headspacing from the case mouth. That is why I think using 10mm cases might get rid of the failures to fire. However, I would rather be able to use the 40 cases as that is a big reason for getting the gun. (Besides just the fun of having something different). The primers are Winchester and Wolf. Another reason to try the 10mm cases is that I can try my large primers which work in my light triggered 625. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigosaur Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I'm shooting (or trying to) 40 S&W in the 610. That is why it isn't headspacing from the case mouth. That is why I think using 10mm cases might get rid of the failures to fire. However, I would rather be able to use the 40 cases as that is a big reason for getting the gun. (Besides just the fun of having something different).The primers are Winchester and Wolf. Another reason to try the 10mm cases is that I can try my large primers which work in my light triggered 625. Chris Oh ya! I was thinking about the 10mm I tried out, and my 625 ... sorry. Definitely be worth getting a hold a few 10mm cases and trying 'em out! FWIW, I've got the same thing ... C&S firing pin ... light-trigger ... .40sw ... but I've got metal clips. IIRC, they offered two thicknesses ... IIRC, I got the thicker ones. But I don't recall ever having trouble with the Rimz ... I just like the way the metal ones feed better. Mine are probably quite a bit older, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I don't think switching to 10mm brass will help at all. Using only Federal primers would obviously be best, but perhaps you don't have a supply of those available. In any case, I would suggest shitcanning the plastic moonclips and hand-seating the primers with a hand-priming tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 i had the same issue with mine after 700 or so rounds, i took out the main spring and took a touch of the arch out of it, and i mean just a touch... now it smacks the hell out of the back of the primer... 100% ignition........ still a light trigger.. and still using RIMZ clips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I use Rimz, never had a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intel6 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Oh, I know it seemed obvious but I figured it wouldn't hurt to mention it becuase you talked about the metal clips in your initial pot so I thought you had some. If you intend to use the Rimz then you need to make it work with them. Neal in AZ I haven't tried metal clips. I'll ask around locally to see if anyone has any I can try. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron hands Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Other 610 owners: 180 lazercast sr4756 7.0 gr fed gm mag 221pf hot!!!!! 180 lasercast bullseye 5.3 gr fed gm mag 195 pf 180 lasercast sr4756 5.5gr fed gm mag 145pf 180 lasercast bullseye 3.5 gr fed gm mag 135pf All are got loads dont max out the sr4756 the max is 7.1 gr and the RO wont like the big bang good for hunting and taking steel down at 75 yards. I run all of my match loads close to mas or at max but this is me the lower pfs are 1 tenth higher then minamen charg the mag primers just give me that littel extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) I suspect it is your primers (unless you are firing Federals, then I haven't a clue). I use Win Brass, Fed SP primers (Fed SP Mag for practice) and RIMZ moons. The only time I have any issues is when I short stroke the trigger. I have a C&S extended firing pin and the Wolff Reduced power mainspring cranked all the way up. Recently I shot a match using my major ammo (which had Winchester SP primers) and was surprised that they all went ott.. I was expecting about a 3-5% no-fire issue that did not materialize. Again, seatling length is 1.240" for my Cast 185 RN's. When you have failure to fires, are you pulling the trigger quickly or kind of slowly? I have a 627 that when you squeeze the trigger slowly it sometimes does not ignite Winchester primers. I never had an issue with it since my trigger speed tends to be faster than my friend who is borrowing it for a match or two. Also if you need some metal moons and you can't find any, I think I have some ranch moons I could send you. I don't use them. Edited November 24, 2009 by sargenv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snertley Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Do what Mike said, hand seat all the primers. I do it for all my 610 ammo. I due use Federal SP primers and have no problem, I do use metal moons though. 180gr Hornady XTP, 10.3gr Blue dot = 243PF (for deer and just for the fun of it ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 When you have failure to fires, are you pulling the trigger quickly or kind of slowly? I have a 627 that when you squeeze the trigger slowly it sometimes does not ignite Winchester primers. I never had an issue with it since my trigger speed tends to be faster than my friend who is borrowing it for a match or two. Pulling the trigger faster does not increase the speed or the distance of the hammer fall. There can be no difference between a fast pull and a slow pull in the momentum imparted on the primer. If you're sure this isn't coincidence, you have a timing problem--fast pulls are causing the cylinder to fully carry up, but the slow pulls are not, causing primer hits to be slightly off center on the slow pulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Well, I checked my press last night and apparently the pivoting rod that drives the primer into the case has worn a bit. My primer system used to be set to pre-crush the primers. That wasn't happening anymore. I adjusted it to pre-crush again. That should help. I'll try some 40's again later this week to see if this helps. Chris ETA: BTW, I can get a .020 feeler gauge in between the breech face and rounds loaded in a moon clip with the action closed. I put some already fired 40 S&W empties in a moonclip and dropped the hammer on them and could see the firing pin drive the case forward quite a bit. I can't get any feeler gauge between the rachet and the breach face. Does this spacing sound about right? Edited November 24, 2009 by Resjudicata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 brian enos sent me an e mail on how to optimize the primer seating system let me see if i can find it on my email, i know i have it on hard copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 brian enos sent me an e mail on how to optimize the primer seating system let me see if i can find it on my email, i know i have it on hard copy. Thanks but, it probably won't help me. I use a Loadmaster. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I got to shoot a new 610 last week metal moon clips--Carmoney - trigger job almost 5 lbs shot every time,federal primers mixed brass major loads,, I want one,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Pulling the trigger faster does not increase the speed or the distance of the hammer fall. There can be no difference between a fast pull and a slow pull in the momentum imparted on the primer. If you're sure this isn't coincidence, you have a timing problem--fast pulls are causing the cylinder to fully carry up, but the slow pulls are not, causing primer hits to be slightly off center on the slow pulls. All I know is.. when I pull it, the gun goes bang, bang, bang, bang and when he pulls it, it goes bang, click, bang, bang, click. Same gun, same ammo, different technique. I don't think it's coincidence since we can repeat it. I also don't think it's a timing problem since the primers look ok, there is no "smear" primer hits.. some indent, some indent but not as deep (misfires). The gun in question also has the same setup as my 610. Reduced power mainspring cranked all the way up and a C&S extended firing pin. The only real difference is that it has about 80,000 less rounds through it. Edited November 24, 2009 by sargenv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Q Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) I got to shoot a new 610 last week metal moon clips--Carmoney - trigger job almost 5 lbs shot every time,federal primers mixed brass major loads,, I want one,, Carmoney does great work. I use the metal clips. Works everytime. Major loads with Clays are softer than my GAP loads. Edited November 24, 2009 by Greg Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lentz Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Gregg Q, Do you have a Bowen rear sight on your 610 that is pictured if so how do you like it? My new 610 is on its way from NM cant wait till it gets here then i have to take it to pinnicle so he can put 2 ball detents in it and chamfer it. Regards Josh Lentz A-62444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Q Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Gregg Q,Do you have a Bowen rear sight on your 610 that is pictured if so how do you like it? My new 610 is on its way from NM cant wait till it gets here then i have to take it to pinnicle so he can put 2 ball detents in it and chamfer it. Regards Josh Lentz A-62444 I really like the LPA rear fiber optic. It matches the sight picture of my Limited gun. I think most people use the Millett rear sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 My new 610 is on its way from NM cant wait till it gets here then i have to take it to pinnicle so he can put 2 ball detents in it and chamfer it. Josh, before you spend the bucks on ball detents, ask Mark how he really feels about them. The reason I say that is that the very first revolversmith I ever talked to (Doc Jones from California, who built my custom "Couger" revolver back in the mid-'80s) told me they don't really do anything. Many other knowledgeable revo guys have told me the same thing since. And my own experience with S&Ws seems to bear this out. For what it's worth, I have double ball detents on my oldest 25-2, and I don't think they do a damn thing. Just something to ask about before you forge ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lentz Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Mike, I have them on all my competition guns, i have one on the top of the yoke to keep it closed since i take out the ejector rod bolt. The other one is on the bottom of the yoke where it hinges (where the frame and the yoke meet) to keep the cylinder open. So when im running and reloadng my cylinder is not flopping around. Since i do the weak handed reload my hand is not on the cylinder at all. I think the bottom one is doing more justice than the top one. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 If ball detents are correctly installed, they hold the cylinder closed well enough that it takes some force to overcome to open the cylinder. The easiest way to tell is with just the crane in the frame without the cylinder on it. I haven't seen many that were done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slflr Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Pulling the trigger faster does not increase the speed or the distance of the hammer fall. You might be wrong here. Pulling the trigger fast results in an an increase in the distance the hammer falls. Inertia of the hammer with a quick trigger pull will throw the hammer further back resulting in a longer hammer strike and thus increase the energy applied to the primmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 If ball detents are correctly installed, they hold the cylinder closed well enough that it takes some force to overcome to open the cylinder.The easiest way to tell is with just the crane in the frame without the cylinder on it. I haven't seen many that were done right. The bigger ball detents on the S&W PC guns--I agree those work as you describe. But the little ball detents in the Ron Power kit--not so much. Besides, why would I want to create the need to apply more force to open the cylinder? On a Bianchi or PPC gun, where there's a premium on long-range accuracy and speed is much less important--OK maybe. On a USPSA or ICORE gun, where speed reloads are critically important--no way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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