Primers sticking out .002-.003"

[leam]

Still having issues with gunk left in the primer pocket. The last batch I primed left some primers sticking out .002-.003". Is that unsafe? Any risk of slam-firing?

Thanks!

Leam

[Jman]

Yes. You need them below flush. Mine sit at .005" below flush and work 100%.

[boz1911]

Still having issues with gunk left in the primer pocket. The last batch I primed left some primers sticking out .002-.003". Is that unsafe? Any risk of slam-firing?

Thanks!

Leam

Bad juju. The firing pin can strike the primer moving it forward in the pocket and not igniting. Slamfire? I don't know the answer to that one, but I've witnessed many high primer missfires.

[GrumpyOne]

Yes. You need them below flush. Mine sit at .005" below flush and work 100%.

I don't belive that the primer sitting .002 - .003 above flush is a danger to slam fire. If that were the case, all of us open shooters using rifle primers instead of small pistol would have found this out long ago. If you are gonna have a slam fire with them just .003 high, then you are most likely gonna have a slam fire with them at .005 under, after all, you are only talking about 8 thousandths of an inch. A quote from the internet:

A slamfire is a premature, unintended discharge of a firearm that occurs as a round is being loaded into the chamber. Slamfires are most common in military firearms that have a free-floating firing pin, as opposed to a spring-loaded one. In the action of a typical semi-automatic weapon, the energy of a fired round forces the bolt and bolt carrier rearward, ejecting the empty case. A spring then forces the bolt forward again, and in the process a fresh round is stripped out of the magazine. When the face of the bolt hits the head of the chamber, unless there is a spring around the pin to retard its movement, inertia causes the firing pin to continue forward until it is stopped on the primer of the round. Sometimes this inertial force is sufficient to set off the primer, thereby firing the round without the operator pulling the trigger. This can potentially occur repeatedly, until the magazine has been emptied or the weapon malfunctions.

Slamfires are a very dangerous situation, because the operator will have no control of the weapon. Though they are very rare in quality well-maintained weapons using quality ammunition, all weapons operators should be aware of the risk. It is wise to ensure that the weapon is pointed in a safe direction ("downrange") before closing the bolt and chambering a cartridge. If a slamfire does occur, the operator must do his best to remain calm and hold the weapon securely, pointed in a safe direction, until it ceases firing. Needless to say, this requires extraordinary discipline and many operators will "spook" and instinctively drop the weapon as soon as it begins firing.

As dirt and fouling accumulate in the firing pin channel, the pin may begin to protrude from the bolt face, and the risk of slamfire increases. If the firing pin is permanently locked forward, as is done intentionally for open bolt designs, the round will fire every time the bolt closes.

Aside from the dangers of any accidental discharge, slamfires present the particular risk of an out-of-battery detonation. This occurs when a round is fired before it is completely secured in the chamber, and can damage or destroy the firearm, as well as potentially injure the operator and bystanders.

Recognizing the obvious need to minimize the chance of this happening, there are two simple methods commonly employed. One is to use ammunition with harder primers, which require a more significant strike from the firing pin and are thus unlikely to go off with a comparatively light inertial strike. Most military ammunition makes use of hard primers for this reason.[1][2] The second method of minimizing the risk of slamfire is in the design of the firearm itself. Spring-loaded firing pins prevent slamfires because the pin cannot easily move inside the bolt. A proper strike from the firearm's hammer will overcome the resistance of the spring, but ordinary inertia will not. A simple solution in free-floating pin designs is to make the firing pin itself very lightweight, which reduces its inertia and lessens the risk of slamfire.

Technically, the risk of slamfire is inherent in any design that uses a free-floating firing pin. This does not necessarily equate to an inferior design, however, as many excellent military firearms make use of them due to their simplicity and ruggedness. One such design often associated with a tendency to slamfire is the SKS. Many of the reported cases of slamfire in the SKS are quite likely in surplus examples that have not been properly cleaned of preservative cosmoline inside the firing pin channel. The old British Army Sten gun was well known for slam-firing, having been commonly known to be dropped, and the entire weapons magazine being emptied whilst the weapon spun in a circle on the floor due to the direction of the recoil of the bolt (the same recoil that would cause barrel-rise, were the weapon held by a user), a number of soldiers having been known to be shot in the ankle during such incidents.

[leam]

I'm shooting a Sistema with fairly heavy stock springs. My biggest concern was the slide closing and pushing in the primer enough to cause ignition. Sounds like this isn't as much of an issue, but something to avoid once I figure out how to clean the pockets better.

That make safe sense?

Leam

[CJDOUBLETAP]

To high. I always seat mine below flush.

If you were planning on shooting a revo with any kind of decent competition action job... you would be screwed, lol. Click click click....

[Jman]

For clarity and emphasis to our OP.

Thanks

Jim

Still having issues with gunk left in the primer pocket. The last batch I primed left some primers sticking out .002-.003". Is that unsafe? YES Any risk of slam-firing? YES

Thanks!

Leam

[blkbrd]

What press are you using.

I have never had a problem with high primers (even WSR) in any loads done on my 550-650 or by hand.

Sounds like you are "soft seating them". You can just about crush a primer in the hole without it going off.

Primers will slice through just about any crud and seat tightly.

You are more at risk of misfires due to the firing pin seating the primer than slam-fires.

Edited July 30, 2009 by blkbrd

[Justsomeguy]

What press are you using.

I have never had a problem with high primers (even WSR) in any loads done on my 550-650 or by hand.

Sounds like you are "soft seating them". You can just about crush a primer in the hole without it going off.

Primers will slice through just about any crud and seat tightly.

You are more at risk of misfires due to the firing pin seating the primer than slam-fires.

Also... some primers, like CCI for one, NEED to be seated firmly to work properly. The "anvil" or little triangular shaped insert that sits on top of the priming compound is not touching the priming compound UNTIL the primer is forced sufficiently into the cartridge to force it down into place. Therefore, the primer WILL NOT WORK until or unless it has been properly seated.

[Carmoney]

It's probably not gunk in the primer pockets. Your press (or possibly your technique in running the press) is simply not getting the primers seated adequately.

[John Dunn]

I don't belive that the primer sitting .002 - .003 above flush is a danger to slam fire. If that were the case, all of us open shooters using rifle primers instead of small pistol would have found this out long ago.

I seat all my small rifle below flush on all my pistol loads, so not sure what you mean.

OP... you have to develop a feel for consistently seating primers, unless you're loading on a 1050.

[steel1212]

Is your shell plate down as far as it will go and still allowing things to turn? If not its allowing the brass to come up to high and not getting the primers in there good.

[GrumpyOne]

I don't belive that the primer sitting .002 - .003 above flush is a danger to slam fire. If that were the case, all of us open shooters using rifle primers instead of small pistol would have found this out long ago.

I seat all my small rifle below flush on all my pistol loads, so not sure what you mean.

OP... you have to develop a feel for consistently seating primers, unless you're loading on a 1050.

I meant that small rifle primers are a little bit "thicker" than small pistol, so in theory, they should stick up higher, but then again, it all depends on the primer pocket in the brass. I know more than one open shooter has had problems with high primers in their open guns when using small rifle primers.....

[GrumpyOne]

For clarity and emphasis to our OP.

Thanks

Jim

Still having issues with gunk left in the primer pocket. The last batch I primed left some primers sticking out .002-.003". Is that unsafe? YES Any risk of slam-firing? YES

Thanks!

Leam

I never said it was impossible, just not probable . I have witnessed a slam fire in person . A friend of mine had a brand new .45 AMT 7" Long slide that slam fired on about the fifth mag ever fired from it. It totally destroyed the gun, but it was determined after sending it back to AMT, that it was a manufacturer issue and had nothing to do with his ammo. AMT was once notorious about having this (and several other issues!) with their products. So, to make the statement clearer, YES, there MAY be a slight chance of a slam fire, just not very probable. There is more a chance that the round won't chamber because of the high primer dragging across the breech face, and if it were to chamber, a very good chance it won't fire as the firing pin would be trying to seat the primer. On another note, I've found that Remington primers are like CCI primers in the aspect of having to seat them firmly to push the anvil back onto the priming compound. FWIW

[leam]

I'm using an RCBS hand priming tool, and setting the primers in so hard some of them have an impression in the head of the primer. For the most part this hasn't been an issue in the 8-10K I've done this way. (I have no life). It's just this first batch of a few hundred that I've seen it.

Leam

[Jman]

Bet that's the problem. Get the bench mount model they make. Its got all the leverage you'll ever need. You can't duplicate that kind of mechanical advantage with a hand tool.

[sd5867]

Not to hijack the thread, but how would you "fix" the high primers.

I know you don't re-seat primers in loaded.

All of the kinetic bullet pullers I have seen say not to use on high primers.

[Jman]

RCBS collet bullet puller.

[LPatterson]

I'm using an RCBS hand priming tool, and setting the primers in so hard some of them have an impression in the head of the primer. For the most part this hasn't been an issue in the 8-10K I've done this way. (I have no life). It's just this first batch of a few hundred that I've seen it.

Leam

That's new info. Have you changed brands of primers or brass? Because CCI's seat harder for me than Federal or Winchester and I am using the same hand tool. I have also had Winchester and CCI seat harder in some brands of brass. So far Federal LP are only going in Starline brass which have a definite feel when seating.

I've been doing the hand priming thing since the first time I forgot to change the primer feed in my 550.

[LPatterson]

RCBS collet bullet puller.

Doesn't work very well with lead pistol bullets. Ask me how I know. But if you want to try I'll send you mine but you have to buy your own collets.

[Justsomeguy]

You know... Unless this thread is a continuation of another I have no knowledge of, we never asked the OP what caliber he was loading or what primer size he was using. If small pistol then ok, because even if he was using small rifle primers they SHOULD seat at or below (preferably .002-004 below) the base of the case. Now if he was using Large Pistol and somehow got some Large RIFLE primers in there, then yeah... they are gonna stick up about that amount (.003) or more because they ARE longer than large pistol primers. That is why you cannot use large rifle primers in pistol calibers... 'cause they are too long.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Justsomeguy