Production Holsters And Mags

[ipsc1]

Three questions,

1. I'm thinking about travelling to the states to shoot. What defines a legal holster for production. I've been using my old safariland, # 9 or 10, not the fancy adjustable one. Is it OK, if not what can I use.

2. grips, I removed my grips and applied grip tape to the frame, OK or not.

3. magazines, and I,m looking for a USPSA answer and an IPSC answer. I use a para LDA, and those who do know what crappy mags they come with ( note: I'm canadian, all I can get is the crappy 10 rounders), There are two companies up here making a metal replacement for that plastic part so the mags will survive being dropped, or inserted for that matter. Now I think that as long as they are not longer that factory standard I'm OK on the IPSC side but they are aluminum and slightly heavier than factory standard so I'm wondering about the USPSA side.

ipsc1

[lynn jones]

ipsc1,

the 10 round mag are all you need here in the states. that's all you can load anyway. the metal pads would not be legal. put the plastic ones back on and come on down.

the holster sounds fine. no race holsters

the only problem see is the grips on your gun. i think you have to leave the grips on and add the skateboard tape over the grips.

lynn

[Vince Pinto]

IPSC1,

In respect of IPSC Production Division rules:

1) There is no restriction on the design of the holster, only on the placement.

2) Removing your grips and replacing them with grip tape is an illegal modification, but you can replace the original grips with other grips. See Q5 of the IROA FAQ on the IPSC website.

3) You cannot modify your magazines, and this includes changing (or adding) new base plates, regardless of whether or not they add weight or additional capacity. However you can replace the factory magazines with aftermarket magazines provided they have the same external dimensions. See Q14 on the same link above.

Hope this helps.

[David Olhasso]

For USPSA (NOT IPSC)

I am not familar with your holster so I'm not sure of its legallity. If it is a "race" holster then it is NOT legal. If you need a new holster, I would get a Dropped and Offset holster from ww.Blade-tech.com for about $65 delivered.

You need to have the grips installed. But if the factory sells grips more to your liking then you can buy them. If the factory does not sell the grips then you cannot use them. You can of course, apply grip tape over your grips.

Production rules on magazines are iffy at best. The current interpretation is that the magazine length must be no longer than the factory supplied magazine. The rules do specifically state that no weighted attachment is allowed. I suspect that replacing the plastic piece on the para 10 round mag with an aluminum one would add such a tiny amount of weight to not matter and any RO, MD, RM who ahd an issue with it should be beaten. Heck, replacing the factory spring with a wolff spring adds at least a tiny amount of weight. Also, there is no reason why you could not buy an aftermarket 10-round mag for the para.

[Flexmoney]

The Safariland 09 or the 010 would be considered race holsters, and not allowed in USPSA Production.

(Image borrowed from http://www.practicalshooting.com/safariland-holsters.html )

[Flexmoney]

2. Romoving the grips would be an external modification (from what i understand), which isn't allowed.

Adding grip tape is allowed.

3. No weighted attachments allowed to magazines. If the steel weighs more than the plastic, then I would guess it would be a NoGo.

[ipsc1]

IPSC1,

In respect of IPSC Production Division rules:

2) Removing your grips and replacing them with grip tape is an illegal modification, but you can replace the original grips with other grips. See Q5 of the IROA FAQ on the IPSC website.

3) You cannot modify your magazines, and this includes changing (or adding) new base plates, regardless of whether or not they add weight or additional capacity. However you can replace the factory magazines with aftermarket magazines provided they have the same external dimensions. See Q14 on the same link above.

Ok, if the grip tape matches the factory grips profile would that be acceptable? and what defines aftermarket grips, if I make my own grips and they match factory profile is that acceptable.?

Alternatively could I recut the checkering on the factory grips or stipple them, would that qualify as "detailing". The current factory checkering is more decorative than functional but its enough to prevent the grip tape from adhering securely.

because of our stupid laws most of my factory mags have been modified to hold only 10 rounds, usually that involves a metal (aluminum) plug attached to the inside of the mag. obviously this adds weight, others have had a dimple beat into them to stop the follwer, and that is obviously visible. so do the rules allow for such modifications to meet stupid laws passed by stupid politicians.

not trying to be difficult, just trying to define what is allowed and what is not, and what it is going to cost me.

thanks

ipsc1

[Vince Pinto]

ipsc1,

The following definitions and rule appear in the glossary of the new (January 2004) IPSC Rulebook:

Aftermarket Items manufactured by a party other than the OFM.

OFM Original firearm manufacturer.

20.3 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape is permitted, however rubber sleeves are prohibited.

So, yes, homemade grips would be considered "aftermarket" and they would be permitted, provided you comply with PD Rule 20.3 above. When we say "match the profile", the aftermarket grips must be the same size and shape of the original OFM grips, but you might, for argument's sake, use a different material (e.g. rubber instead of wood etc.).

And there's no limit on the amount of grip tape you can apply to the grips, but you cannot cut or stipple OFM grips. If you really wanted deeper scoring on your grips, the best advice I can give you is to buy (or make) a set of aftermarket grips and cut or stipple them to your heart's content, provided you retain the OFM profile.

Your question about the weight of magazines only applies to the USPSA (not IPSC) Production Division rules, and I'll let somebody else reply.

[D.Hayden]

20.3 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape is permitted, however rubber sleeves are prohibited.

Vince, this is IPSC only right? No changes to USPSA Production?

Appendix E, Production

"Slip on grip sock and/or skatebaord tape is allowed"

I'm taking this to mean, those Hogue Rubber slip on grips are ok right?

Thanks, Dave

[ipsc1]

ipsc1,

Your question about the weight of magazines only applies to the USPSA (not IPSC) Production Division rules, and I'll let somebody else reply.

yes the weight part is an USPSA thing but IPSC rules state:

# Modifications or replacement of internal or external components (including magazines), which are not offered by the original manufacturer for the approved handgun are prohibited (See Rule 6.2.6).

my magazines are modified in a way not offered by the OFM, their 10 round mags are poorly constructed half plastic affairs. These are original OFM normal capacity mags that have been modified by me to meet gov't requirements.

ipsc1

[Vince Pinto]

Dave,

Yes Sir. The rules I quoted are indeed IPSC rules and, as far as I know, the USPSA rules have not changed from the 14th Edition 2001 version of the rulebook. If so, then "Hogue" slip-on rubber grips are still OK under USPSA PD rules.

ipsc1,

The rule you quoted (IPSC PD #21) is current, however the "including magazines" bit is badly worded and is therefore confusing, especially since it appears to contradict the next PD rule which currently says:

(IPSC PD) 22. “After market” magazines which match the external dimensions of standard magazines offered by the original handgun manufacturer for the subject handgun are permitted.

I therefore suggest you consider the January 2004 Edition of IPSC PD rules, which are much clearer:

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited.

19.2 Base plates and/or any other devices which provide additional ammunition capacity (e.g. “+2” magazine extensions), are prohibited.

19.3 Front sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have sight black applied.

20. Aftermarket parts, components and accessories are prohibited, except as follows:

20.1 Aftermarket magazines which match the external dimensions of standard magazines offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted.

20.2 Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

20.3 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape is permitted, however rubber sleeves are prohibited.

Hence, under 19.1, you cannot modify OFM parts or components so, if you've modified your magazines yourself, they are not legal under IPSC rules. Now while this might seem harsh, if we allow people to modify OFM magazines, they'll then want to be able to modify other OFM parts, and then we're on a slippery slope towards totally customised guns, and that is not the way we want IPSC PD to go.

[diehli]

I know the answer to this question just from common sense, but I'll ask it anyway:

Are the 31-round 9mm mags that Glock offers legal for PD? Is there any rule that specifically addresses that issue (box size, etc.)? Additionally, why are plus 2's disallowed if they're offered by the OFM?

Here's another question: what about the Glock 18? Talk about some crazy split times! Is there any rule that states that one pull and reset of the trigger must fire only one shot? This was an issue in paintball a few years back when electronic 'guns started coming out and allowed multiple programs for 1-,3-,6-, and continuous-shot modes. There were also some aftermarket trigger setups for other 'guns that fired one shot on the pull and another on the release.

Just curious... not looking to stir anything up.

[Vince Pinto]

Gorilla,

The Glock 31 round magazines are only offered by Glock for their G18 pistol, but guns capable of rapid fire are prohibited from IPSC matches by virtue of:

5.1.11 Handguns offering "burst" and/or fully automatic operation (i.e. whereby more than one round can be discharged on a single pull or activation of the trigger) are prohibited.

The above rule also prevents a Beretta 93R from being used.

The prohibition against "+2" baseplates and similar devices is to keep magazine capacity limited to the "standard" offered by the OFM.

[diehli]

Coolio... thanks. Here's to waiting for September 2004... I'm tired of getting screwed out of 7 rounds of mag capacity in a fun gun (let alone SD).

[Vince Pinto]

ipsc1,

Today I was challenged (off forum) in respect of my earlier advice when I advised you that competitors modifying OFM magazines with "homemade" plugs (or other devices) placed inside them, in order to limit capacity to comply with Regional or National laws, are making illegal modifications under IPSC Production Division rules.

While I fully understand your need to comply with the laws of your country (Canada?), I can only advise you in respect of the way the rules currently stand, which is "Modifications or replacement of internal or external components (including magazines), which are not offered by the original manufacturer for the approved handgun are prohibited (See Rule 6.2.6)." Note the special mention of magazines.

You describe the manufacturer's 10 round magazines as being "poorly constructed half plastic affairs". While I have no reason to doubt you, if we allow some competitors to use a "poorly constructed" argument to justify modfications to magazines, how can we possibly stop other competitors from using the very same argument to justify changing a trigger assembly or another component?

The real problem here is the manufacturer supplying sub-standard magazines, not IPSC rules.

Anyway, if your problem is widespread, discuss the matter with your Regional Director, who can contact IPSC at anytime to find a solution which will enable you and other affected competitors to comply with Regional or National laws and IPSC rules.

[ipsc1]

Thanks Vince, yes I'm Canadian and I have spoken to my RD so if enough of us percieve this as a problem then perhaps our NEC may take action.

My gun is the para LDA and one of the reasons I chose it was that I had lots of preban ( read full metal body ) mags so my start up costs would be minimized. The 10 round mags that para makes are half plastic and held together with 2 small plastic tabs that tends to break when dropped. I've even had new ones break when slapped home into the gun. But there are also a lot of CZ shooters here that have pulled out guns that they have owned for years, to compete in production division. Most of them have mags that they have have had to plug to be legal. So our choices are remove the plug for matches in order to shoot in productiuon division or buy another set of mags . After the XD screwup by the "Powers-that be", production is getting a bad rap around here.

I realize your position is that of the purist , no modifications, period, but a modification to magazines to comply with legal requirements and that does not improve competitiveness or convey an advantage should be within the spirit of the rules. I would think that would be fairly easy to write into the rules without opening the doors to trigger jobs and radical surgery on the pistol.

ipsc1

[Vince Pinto]

ipsc1,

Please give my best regards to Sean Hansen - I first met him in 1999 in Cebu when he was a rookie RD, and I did my best to make him feel welcome. Judging by his comments over a few beers one night, I think I succeeded

Yes, I agree that your proposed magazine plug is within the spirit of the rules but, sadly, not permitted according to the way they are written now or in the new January 2004 Edition. However I've made a note to deal with this matter in the future, but the earliest we could something in the rulebook would be January 2005.

In the meantime, I'll contact Sean to see how we can help Canadian competitors for the immediate future.

If you have any other issues to discuss, don't hesitate to raise them here. In fact, the matter at hand is being discussed right now by the Production Division Committee.

[slavex]

oh great yet another snag for us PD guys in Canada........... (way to rock the boat chickenfarmer!)

hey what is going on with the whole XD-40 thing? (hmm new thread maybe?)

[Vince Pinto]

Rob,

See this thread and this thread about the Springfield XD Series.

[ipsc1]

hey Slavex, like I tell my friends, I'm not trying to be difficult, it just comes naturally.

and thanks to Vince, even if I don't like the answers, at least I can get definitive answers as opposed to opinions.

Yeah Vince, Sean told me some stories from Cebu, and I had thought I might meet you in Peitersburg.

ipsc1

[Vince Pinto]

ipsc1,

I was in Pietersberg for 2 weeks but I don't recall meeting anybody called"ipsc1" nor a chicken-farmer.

If you tell me the name your Momma gave you (and I don't mean "Pumpkin"), I might remember you

[ipsc1]

Hi vince, the name is Cliff Meek, and I'm pretty sure we didn't meet, unless it was one evening in the bar at the range talking Palm scoring with Peter. I was shooting Open then, parked that gun as soon as I got home and started shooting production.

ipsc1

[Vince Pinto]

Cliff,

No, I don't think we met, but I did help hold the bar up at the range one or two times, and I caught up with Sean Hansen and his dad Fred on a few occasions in the vendor area and during the General Assembly, primarily in relation to Canada's bid to host WSXIV in Nova Scotia.

Apart from my regular IPSC duties, I was also representing Hong Kong at that GA, and I voted for Canada, but it was not to be.

BTW, I thnk I remember you (fondly) from the IPSC Digest.

[shred]

Aftermarket Items manufactured by a party other than the OFM.

OFM Original firearm manufacturer.

Uh, how does this work if the OFM buys a part from another manufacturer and sticks it on their gun from the factory? Clearly they don't make it (see Springfield's advertising "Dawson sights" on their factory models for one), but under these definitions it would still be aftermarket. What's up with that?

And don't get me started on who actually makes all those 'factory' parts. You'd be surprised who is buying what from who to make completed pistols.

Perhaps a different term than "manufactured" is appropriate.

[Vince Pinto]

Shred,

The IPSC Production Rules also state:

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:<snip>

Of course "offered" does not require the OFM to actually make them and, yes, virtually all OFMs buy-in some components, especially springs. Having said that, I agree that the "aftermarket" definition could be improved, but I'm not sure we have enough time (or the authority to do so) at this late stage. However I've already suggested:

"Aftermarket - Items not available directly from the OFM."