Target To Target Speed

[sincityshooter]

I've been caught in the hoser mode the last year or so and fell behind on my target to target times. I'm starting a new training regimen that will focus heavily on transitions. However, I need a goal.

I'm looking for solid transition times on an El Pres array. I want GM transitions, but not blaze and pray times. Another words what would the top dogs do in a match situation? I'm working my way down and currently my comfort level is around .27 (slow). .20 feels a bit out of control with sloppy hits. My eyes are not 100% in front of the shots at this pace. I feel a .20-.22 target to target would be solid enough for anyone. Am I right? Brian?

I'm also working on 2 targets at 10y with a 10 foot space between. Draw and shoot 1 shot on T1, T2, and then back to T1. Those transitions are .34-.37 in the comfort range. I was able to have some success at .30 calling most of my shots. .25-.28 was WAY too fast for me.

Something I noticed today. I had 3 targets at 12y with 3' between and was concentrating on getting my eyes to the next target the moment I saw the dot lift. Even though all my focus was on my target to target speed, my splits on the targets increased. I was trying for .19-.20 splits and .22-.25 target to target. What happened was .14-.17 splits and .26-.28 target to target. I couldn't help the splits.

When I'm working on target to target drills I will accept some C's as long as I'm able to call them right away. I feel this is the only way I can increase my speed.

Please reply and let me know what you think.

[h4444]

.20 over .27 only buys you .28 for the stage and it isn't worth it if you lose points due to accuracy.

I'm not going to assume anything about skill level.....so please,,,,I'm not trying to be a A-hole.

But areas to focus on that I would recommend is the turn/draw and your mag change.

.27 splits across the board if you assumed your shot to shot splits on the targets were the same speed as your target to target transitions would give you about 3.2 seconds shooting....

Where is the rest of the time,,,,,,,,draw and mag change.

I've changed to really focus on getting my eyes on the first target as quickly as possible and draw the gun to my eyes, over the last 6 months, I've probably cut between .3 and .5 of a second off my draws. Working on efficient mag changes, I've cut another .3+ off my times.

.6 of a second on a 60 point COF will equal about a 1 point improvement in hit factor without increasing shot-to-shot splits.

I stay about the same speed and am getting about 95% of the points,,,,If I rush and blow a couple points, then it negates the increased speed quickly. El Pres is a hoser, but if you want to do well on it you HAVE to shoot for points.

H4444

[Jake Di Vita]

There's an old adage. Major on the majors. While I think decent transitions are necessary, it isn't nearly as important as other aspects of the game.

That being said. Remember that you can only shoot as fast as you can see. Also if you're doing a full swing from left side of the range to the right (which usually doesn't happen now...hello gun nudge) then obviously your times are going to be much slower than targets with only a foot of distance between them.

What I recommend is go at a comforatable pace. Shoot A's, then slowly start increasing the speed. Remember that you ONLY get better when you are stretching yourself beyond your current capabilities. Just don't forget to call each and every shot.

I don't want to say a certain time that is "good." In effect, the second you say that you are limiting yourself...Another huge trap to watch out for.

[Flexmoney]

I'm starting a new training regimen that will focus heavily on transitions. However, I need a goal.

I'm looking for solid transition times on an El Pres array. I want GM transitions, but not blaze and pray times.

Ron Avery and Matt Burkett talk about cadence drills in thier shooting videos. I can't stress enough how I feel this is a training tool, once you get it...you have to remember that the vision drives the shooting.

Here is the deal...set-up the three targets at 10y...shoot two on each...with the goal being to have BOTH your splits & your transition the same.

Start slow. Shoot all Alphas. I don't know about other timers, but the Pact Mk-IV can be set to beep at a desired cadence. Start at a pace that you can achieve every time...maybe 0.50 between shots (remember, this is the difference between BOTH splits and transitions). Once you feel that you can do that speed 5 times in a row, all Alphas, then drop the cadence down by 0.05. Repeat.

You will have to slow down your splits to match yuor transitions. Do it. (just training)

I'm also working on 2 targets at 10y with a 10 foot space between. Draw and shoot 1 shot on T1, T2, and then back to T1. Those transitions are .34-.37 in the comfort range. I was able to have some success at .30 calling most of my shots. .25-.28 was WAY too fast for me.

On targets that are spaced wide, that require a big swing...you might look more at your index and stance.

I think a lot of shooters don't give enough bend in their knees...and they turn too much at the waist.

Also, if you setup on T1, then push out to T2...that requires different muscles than if you setup your body on T2 (still shooting T1 first), and pull in. Try it different ways to see what is working for you right now.

Remain loose.

Something I noticed today. I had 3 targets at 12y with 3' between and was concentrating on getting my eyes to the next target the moment I saw the dot lift. Even though all my focus was on my target to target speed, my splits on the targets increased. I was trying for .19-.20 splits and .22-.25 target to target. What happened was .14-.17 splits and .26-.28 target to target. I couldn't help the splits.

Sounds like your were really tuned into seeing and calling the shot...good thing. It also sounds like you had some tension...not so good.

When I'm working on target to target drills I will accept some C's as long as I'm able to call them right away. I feel this is the only way I can increase my speed.

Mabye, maybe not...Brian has been talking about "knowing". Knowing is fast. There is really no reason to train your self to accept the C hits. You might have to take a small step back in speed...so that you can take two steps forward.

[sincityshooter]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

H4444: I'm focusing on the transitions because that's what I do all match long. The draw and the reload is not what I need to improve. There are not too many stages anymore where you can draw and shoot a target in a second or under. Most stages require some movement or drawing your gun off the table. Both of those skills I feel confident with. I'm also solid in the reload area.

I believe that next to accuracy, target to target speed is the #2 shooting skill. I strive for accuracy and I practice group shooting, 25y bill drills, head shots, and/or 50 yard shots every practice session. However, since my eyes are the limiting factor on speed I feel that I must push myself. Example: I stated earlier that my comfort zone on the El Pres was .27 target to target. If I train my eyes to lead my gun to the next target in .19-.20 w/ some CALLED C's then after a month or so at that speed I would bet that I could shoot A's on demand at .21-.22. Everything would feel slow and smooth which equals success.

Flex, the last practice session I had a cadence in my head probably in the .25-.30 area. However, once the buzzer went off I was just shooting. The dot would come back into the A zone and I would pull the trigger somewhere in the .17-.19 range. Oops. I tried it a few times. I think you are on the right track starting with .50 and working my way down. I have a Mark IV timer, now I have to figure out how to make it beep 6 times.

I would still like to see where I am in my progress compared to the top dogs.

[Steve Anderson]

First step is to think of an elprez type array as a sweeping bill drill.

(I didn't say always shoot it that way, just think of it that way.)

This will allow you to free yourself of the double-tap, double tap, double tap cadence.

Do a few in Bill drill cadence mode, steering the gun as if it was on full auto.

When you can do that, and have gotten the splits and trans very similar, get back into the vision of what you are seeing.

Flex's answer was much better...I just don't have any time today.

SA

[dpeters8445]

(First step is to think of an elprez type array as a sweeping bill drill.)

Steve,

Very good analagy. This has been the way I have tried to shoot the El Prez and it works. Breaking that double tap cadence helps alot.

[Limitless13]

For the cadence maneuver use a standard musical rhythm counter. They work great. You can pick a cheap one up at almost any music store where they carry instruments. They run at about $10-30 bucks and will have any cadence you want.

KS

[dpeters8445]

I have been tring to get myself trained to snap my eyes to that next target as soon as I call the shot. When I'm on, I can say that this plays a huge part in my game and it shows on the timer. It doesn't matter if its a standing standard or a huge field course, it makes a big difference on the timer. I am still a rookie and have many things to learn and it seems that snapping my eyes to the next target as soon as the dot lifts is hard for me to always do under match conditions. I don't no if the probem is that my eyes get lazy or if I need more practice time to Consciously burn this into my brain so that down the road I will be able to do this without thinking about it.

The other thing that I find that really speeds up my target to target tranisions, especially on a field course, is that really planning every shot, shooting position, mag change, and mentally burning into your head where each target is all on the walk through before you ever fire a shot. I was lucky enough to be in Max Michel Jr.'s squad at the area 8. Max is a master at planning out everything on the walk through and right before he gets the LAMR comand, you can see max close his eyes and mentally account for each and every target on the course.

[ErikW]

I disagree about trans. not being important in a match. They are and you are right to try to improve upon yours.

.19-.20 splits and .22-.25 target to target

That sounds perfect for something like an El Prez. I was doing them today and out of control (bunch of D hopers), I could get both splits and transitions in the teens. In control, calling the shots, the times were as you mentioned.

I've noticed the transitions slow down very close to the targets where you are swinging your gun more. Of course they also slow down very far from the targets, where you take a little extra time to steady the dot or align the sights and squeeze the triger.

I think I'm pretty good at transitions but I can't say what got me there. Being aggressive for sure, and knowing where the A zone of the next target is. I can tell when I'm rushing the trans., particularly with the Open gun, because I'm breaking the shot as I come into the target C/D zones. Look for the A zone and wait for the dot to get there.

One more thing. Good shooters shoot an array of targets with good transitions, then look and set up for the next array of targets. Great shooters make it look like they're all part of the same array the way they swing off the first array's last target and onto the next array's first target. It's one of the few things I can visibly see is different between a national GM and club Master.

[Rocket]

I'm not sure what the hhf for open is in el prez , but if you can do .25 splits/transitions with a 1.30 draw and reload , that's a 5.1 sec run. In limited, 53 points will give you a GM score with that time. I imagine 55 points would do it in open. So there is more than one way to get there. I like to isolate the shooting when working up the speed for this drill. I'll hold the gun up ready and crack the first shot at the beep and go thru the array shooting A's. Start slow , the timer might read 2 seconds after 6 shots , then work your way up in speed. Once you've got it down to 1.55 ( assuming a .3 reaction time for the first shot ) you are at the .25/.25 mark. A 1.3 sec run will be the .20/.20 mark. That's really cranking and would be a pace to get you down to a 4.6 sec. total time with the 1.3 sec draw/ reload. When I started doing this my best el pres. times were in the 6 plus sec range , but after just a few 300 rd. sessions doing this, I pulled a 4.81 / 52 point run. You just have to work up to it slowly , giving your eyes a chance to get acclimated to what they need to see with some slower runs at first. I think the .50/.50 pace Flex suggested is a good starting point and the cadence, while kind of a trap, is a good mental reminder to get your eyes over to the next A-zone as soon as the last shot breaks. To do .20 transitions you really have to snap over to the next target pretty fast and a 1.3 sec run would probably look like the gun never stopped moving to the outside observer, but once you work up to it , you'll see every shot.

Bill

[sincityshooter]

I'm not looking at how well I can do the El Pres. I haven't done an El Pres in a long time... the last one I did was a year ago in a match. I think it was 5 seconds down 4. I just used the El Pres example because most shooters know the set-up. Since most of our shooting is field courses and the arrays vary on every stage I can not duplicate what I'll see in matches. So, I came up with standard target arrays so I can track my improvement.

On most arrays I would say the distance between targets is between 2-5 feet. Watching the top GM's they are all pretty equal on their speed. Watching Todd J. shoot wide transitions (150-170 degree transitions) I believe there is no one faster.

[mcoliver]

I just realized something this morning about wide transitions where I could not see targets peripherally.

After I break the shot, I do not twist my head and acquire the next target. Instead, I move my head and body. Then once the target moves into my peripheral vision, that's the only time I start looking for the A-zone with my eyes.

Jeez...must be because I'm only seeing this sort of things in matches just recently.

[Flexmoney]

mcoliver,

Good catch.

I see a lot of shooters that move their head with the gun (most keep a front sight focus while the swing the gun to the next target). Maaaan...that takes all day.

Call the shot...snap the eyes to the next target. The head (and everything else) will follow.

Sin,

Are there any Steel Challenge matches in your area?

[sincityshooter]

Flex, yes we have some at our local club. I was trying to avoid those matches since some of the shooters are in the dangerous category and the match usually lasts 5 hour+ for 5 courses.

Speaking of steel. I have noticed that when there's an array of steel close together, my eyes will be lazy and not change focus. I will look at the whole array instead of changing my focus to each piece of steel. Some days I'm able to correct this, other days it's miss, miss, ding, ding, miss, ding, miss, miss, ding....

[sincityshooter]

I do snap my eyes/head to the next target on wide transitions. My limiting factor on those targets is confidence which probably comes from lack of experience. I just started practicing wide transitions (150 degree or greater). Watching Todd J. on video (slow mo). His speed is incredible, but his percision is unbelievable. Like Brian has said "move the eyes the moment you confirm the shot (dot lifts/sight comes out of notch) break the next shot the exact moment the dot/sight enters the zone you are focusing on (A zone hopefully)." Maybe those aren't exact words, but that's the message that I get. That exact moment is the tough part.

[benos]

Disragarding skill in index, two factors determine split times.

1) How quickly you see the next target.

2) The precision of your call, on the pervious target.

Of the two, number two is about twice as important as number one.

Or, how you leave is more important than where you go.

Only if you know for certain as the shot is fired that it is acceptable, will you move toward the next target decisively. Hesitation, no matter how slight, always loses.

be

[sincityshooter]

Thanks Brian. If only it was so easy. The biggest difference that I notice with the top GM's is target to target speed on tighter shots (no-shoot or hard cover targets). The splits slow down a hair, but the target to target speed is still very fast. Does that come from confidence? When I'm shooting tough shots, I tend to see the dot lift, come back, and then my eyes go to the next target. I think that I'm concentrating too much on not pulling off of a target that I spend an extra tenth on those shots.

From your post, leaving the target the moment you confirm an acceptable hit should be the same on a 15y hardcover target or a 7 yard open target. The difference would seem to be a slight delay on the first shot on the next hardcover target. Am I on the right track?

I still need to get my eyes faster. It won't take a week, but I'm hoping that I can see improvement by the beginning of next season.

[benos]

scs,

Thanks Brian. If only it was so easy.  The biggest difference that I notice with the top GM's is target to target speed on tighter shots (no-shoot or hard cover targets). The splits slow down a hair, but the target to target speed is still very fast. Does that come from confidence?

Confidence comes from seeing what you need to see. You can look exactly where the gun needs to go easier if you see precisely where the gun came from.

When I'm shooting tough shots, I tend to see the dot lift, come back, and then my eyes go to the next target. I think that I'm concentrating too much on not pulling off of a target that I spend an extra tenth on those shots.

That means that you are not calling the shot with precision. Because if you do, once the gun begins to rise in recoil from the last shot, it never looks back. So in theory, and in practice when you learn to observe it, the gun moves from target to target in a small arc, instead of a perfectly straight line. This "small arc" is the result of the gun leaving the target during recoil.

From your post, leaving the target the moment you confirm an acceptable hit should be the same on a 15y hardcover target or a 7 yard open target.

Yes. Target difficulty has no affect on your call.

be

[mcoliver]

That means that you are not calling the shot with precision. Because if you do, once the gun begins to rise in recoil from the last shot, it never looks back. So in theory, and in practice when you learn to observe it, the gun moves from target to target in a small arc, instead of a perfectly straight line. This "small arc" is the result of the gun leaving the target during recoil.

Now this is where I'm having problems. I can't seem to get comfy moving my gun while in recoil. Figured if I can do this I can also save time off my reloads, too.

[rhino]

I learned Sunday that when I don't worry about the gun itself, my target to target transitions are a lot faster. I shot a .38 super in Limited 10 and although I took a big hit on the points from shooting minor, I made up for it (based on my usual performance) with much better times.

Now, the lesser recoil is a factor, but mostly for splits. And we all know you don't win or lose based on splits, but rather on target to target transitions. Now that I know I can "do" it better, I think I'll be able to shoot my .45 with more confidence.

[Paladin]

A tip..Make the shooting come alive for you!! Shoot each target as if it is one and the same only that it moves when hit (because it is hurt) and whilst it is doing so it may be undergoing various transitions such as cloning, changes in distance, size and/or shape so you cannot hit it again.

The only difference is that this 'one' target is moving at a speed determined by your eye AND your quickness in accepting your hold!! The faster you are here the faster the target will move and so your splits will come down. Notice you can't acquire the next position of the target until you know if you have hit it, since it won't move if you have not hit it. If you have acquired the next position of the target without hitting it in its previous position then you are in the 'future' and so you are not shooting in the 'now'. Therefore you will have to 'rewind'.

Simulation:

1. You run into the box and shoot the target twice. If you call your shots accurately then that means a hit and so the target will move. ACTUALLY YOU HAVE 2 ALTERNATIVES HERE: YOU CAN CALL YOUR SHOT OR LOOK FOR HOLES IN THE TARGET/LISTEN FOR THE PING!..THE FORMER IS WAY EASIER AND FASTER.

2. You follow the target with your eye and when you can confirm a hold (i.e. when the target next appears stationary AND you are seeing what you need to see) then you shoot again.

3. REPEAT STEPS 1 AND 2 UNTIL TARGET STOPS MOVING (aka end of stage).

NOTICE I HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE 'GUN'. SOMEWHERE IN THE SHOOTING YOUR SUB-C WILL SAY 'RELOAD' AND WHEN IT SAY SO JUST DO IT!!

[Flexmoney]

Cool way of thinking about it.