Mini Mart (99-21) Procedure Question

[nhglyn]

Need help in advance. We set up Mini Mart (99-21) for our match tomorrow and some of the guys were questioning if something were "legal" or not.

Procedure says:

Start Position: Standing behind counter, both wrists above respective shoulders, loaded gun and magazines to be used on the shelf under the counter. Gun must be on it side - not propped up by any artifical means. Magazines may be flat or on edge on the shelf. Neither the gun nor the magazines may extend beyond the open edge of the shelf.

Stage Procedure: Upon start signal, from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target. Then make a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf and from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target.

Question..............

On beep can the shooter take the mag from the shelf as prescribed, put it on the table, and then do the reload from the table? He did do the reload with a "magazine taken from the shelf", he just put it on the table after he took it from the shelf and then did his reload from the table.

Or, MUST he do the reload straight from the shelf?

Is this clarified in the rulebook somewhere?

Many thanks in advance, just want to clarify so RO's all do it the same way tomorrow. Help this afternoon or evening appreciated.

Edited July 18, 2009 by nhglyn

[davecutts]

I've done it, but I think it's a loser.

No that I've answered your question on the legality of the move.

[bobert1]

Stage Procedure: Upon start signal, from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target. Then make a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf and from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target.

Or, MUST he do the reload straight from the shelf?

That seems to answer your question.

Edited July 18, 2009 by bobert1

[boz1911]

Certainlly legal but definately not faster. Let the competition go ahead and do it, you'll have the advantage.

[BayouSlide]

What you're describing runs counter to the WSB and is a loser to boot. I'd say no and would issue a procedural if someone did that...but only one because it really offers no competitive advantage.

Curtis

[nhglyn]

Thanks for all your responses, so far it seems that we have heard both sides. Sounds unanimous that it is certainly slower but................is it allowed or not? Let it go or procedural? Is there anything in the rulebook that directly addresses this particular instance?

Edited July 18, 2009 by nhglyn

[BayouSlide]

Per 10.2.2, "a competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurance. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of single penalty."

So, one procedural penalty, per 10.2.2.

Curtis

Edited July 18, 2009 by BayouSlide

[davecutts]

Stage Procedure: Upon start signal, from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target. Then make a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf and from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target.

Or, MUST he do the reload straight from the shelf?

That seems to answer your question.

The magazine was taken from the shelf; it was just placed on the table top during the draw. If you tried to issue me a procedural you had better get your rule book out and point to a specific rule. I would read the stage procedure as don't load off your belt, but from the mag that started on the shelf.

[ima45dv8]

This one has been gamed to death over the years. The method you describe has been scrutinized for as long.

Perfectly legal as the mag was taken from the shelf and not the belt. The WSB does not specify when it can be taken from the shelf.

[BayouSlide]

Procedure says:

Start Position: Standing behind counter, both wrists above respective shoulders, loaded gun and magazines to be used on the shelf under the counter. Gun must be on it side - not propped up by any artifical means. Magazines may be flat or on edge on the shelf. Neither the gun nor the magazines may extend beyond the open edge of the shelf.

Stage Procedure: Upon start signal, from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target. Then make a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf and from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target.

[sNIP]

The magazine was taken from the shelf; it was just placed on the table top during the draw. If you tried to issue me a procedural you had better get your rule book out and point to a specific rule. I would read the stage procedure as don't load off your belt, but from the mag that started on the shelf.

The WSB seems rather straightforward to me. And if so, then 10.2.2 would apply. If I'm your R.O., that's my call. Whether the M.D. agrees, that's his call.

Maybe Troy McManus or George Jones will check in on this. As George knows, it won't be the first time I've put myself out on a limb

Curtis

[BayouSlide]

The WSB does not specify when it can be taken from the shelf.

That's would seem to be the pertinent point...I stand corrected.

Curtis

[BayouSlide]

If I'm your R.O., that's my call. Whether the M.D. agrees, that's his call.

OK, so now the M.D. has given you a reshoot...now quit trying to inefficiently game the stage and get on with the shooting, you sandbagger

Curtis

[davecutts]

It is amazing how much time guys will waste trying to save a few tenths.

[Gary Stevens]

MD? I thought rules questions were the universe of the RM.

[BayouSlide]

Right you are...often times my thinking gets stuck in the Level I world, where they're one and the same. And despite my joke, I would assume in the real world, the incorrectly applied procedural would just be removed when the RM overruled the incorrect call. No reshoot would apply, unless I got so fed up with people gaming the stage that I tossed my timer at the competitor in frustration and thereby interfered with his run.

Love the rules forum...plenty of thorny issues, plenty to learn and plenty of people to keep you honest

Curtis

[Glen]

In a posting from 2004, Anderson, Mink, and Miguez shot Mini-Mart in

the same match. Three different divisions.

Is gaming the mag slower? Miguez and Mink put the mag on the tabletop

on the start. Anderson didn't.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12680

Glen