GrumpyOne Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 First, thanks for all the help in getting me started down this winding road of 38 supers (props to G-Man Bart!)....Now, it seems something weird is happening to my ammo. It's a Hornady XTP 124gr JHP. I've got a (1) round, which fits nicely into the chamber of my TruBor (after taking the barrel out), slides into the breach face (with the barrel out), but when I load it in a mag, cycle it, it stops from going into battery by about 1/16th of an inch. I've tried it as the first round, somewhere in the middle of the mag, and as the last round. Still won't cycle. It seems to be very hard to eject as well. It's baffling me and my gunsmith. I've "miked" the round, everything is within specs, OAL is just a little short if anything (probably from all the repeated cylings!). The only thing we can come up with is, it's the brass. The brass has a head stamp of 38SUPER+P 1*OPT. Who makes this brass? I've had some issues with other rounds of this manufacture as well. At first, thought it was the TruBor, took it apart, cleaned it, still no go. Cleaned it again, changed lube, polished the locking lugs, polished the feed ramp, polished the link, cleaned the breach face until it was shiny, lubed everything up with the slickest stuff I could find (a silicone lubricant), put it all back together, still no go. I'm not new to reloading, just to reloading 38 super. By the way, the brass was bought from my gunsmith, who bought it "loaded" from another of his customers, who sold it to my gunsmith after he blew up his Colt (unsupported barrel) with it. I've uploaded some pics of the case that blew and what it had been loaded with. It was reported that it blew the bottom of the magazine out. No one was hurt. He (the customer) had bought it from a supposed master reloader. The rounds were in terrible shape, some were as much as 1/4" longer/shorter than others, loaded with lead and plated bullets, wayyy over crimped (some were squeezed down to .324!), some were even loaded with 158 grain round nose .357 bullets, and all of the powder weights were skewed (some by as much as 3 grains, I weighed a good sample of them!). 1,500 rounds for $100 bucks, most of it R&P +P brass, but some mixed headstamp in there as well, About 500 rounds were new R&P brass. I'm in the process of pulling ALL the bullets now. And no, the round that won't cycle is not one of those, it's one I loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) The Hornady bullet in the picture is a flat nose bullet, these need to be a lot shorter than round nose bullets. Typically a 38 Super RN is set to no more than 1.240-1.250, so that it will work in an STI mag. Albiet I have loaded some of mine out as long as 1.270 without having an issue. I have not loaded the Flat Nose bullet in a 38 Super, but I have loaded them in 9 mm and this is where I learned about them being a lot shorter. The method used was to take the barrel out and hand fit them till they dropped in freely which was about .010 down from not droping in freely.; When I first started picking up 38 Super brass I had a lot of bulged brass, this is because some open shooters put way too much of the wrong kind of powder behind their bullets using rifle primers to mask the pressure signs. I bought a case pro and have had no further trouble. You didn't say you were using a SAMMI Gauge to drop check the rounds, if they fall in and out of the drop check they should do the same in the gun. If you have to force them in the same thing happens in the gun. These are rimmed cases unlike 45, 40, or 9, but I have not had issues with damaged rims, but from the looks of the one that blew up that Master reloader may have been putting too much of the wrong stuff in those rounds and they may well be bulged down by the rim. From your description of the ammo it all needs to be pulled, just so that you can keep your face and hands. You can buy a 1000 cases from StarLine for about $125.00 might be a wise move. You couldn't in good canscience sell that stuff to some one else but it might save you a lot of money to just get rid of it. VV N350 is a low pressure slow powder for compensated guns start out at about 7.5 gr if your trying to make USPSA major power factor that happens at about 7.8gr with a 125gr bullet. Edited July 11, 2009 by CocoBolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Bear in mind, the pictures are NOT what I am loading, they are what I bought and in the process of "Unloading". The bullet in the picture is not a Hornady bullet either, it's a Berry's plated bullet. And, I believe the reason it blew up was not because of too much powder, but because of an unsupported barrel (older Colt model). Look where it blew out. But, it also could have been the inept reloader who made these. I never had any intention of shooting these rounds "As Is", first, because they weren't loaded by me, second because they weren't jacketed, third because I have no way of knowing what was behind those bullets. I bought them for the brass and primers. As I stated, I "miked" my new rounds, then used my barrel as a case gauge. Therefore length or bulging is not an issue as to why it won't cycle (bear in mind, it's only the one round that won't cyle). As to loading flat points "shorter", when you do so, pressure spikes, giving you bulged cases and so on. If the OAL length is 1.235, it's the same with whatever you load, round, flat or HP. I posted the pics as a "what not to do" when reloading more than anything. To show what can happen when you don't know what you are doing. edited to add comments Edited July 12, 2009 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Interesting pics. I had a similar failure to go into battery with some 9mm loads that I made. It ended up that my sizing die had unscrewed a bit and the was just a little bit of the case that wasn't getting fully sized. I saw the same blow outs when a shooter I know decided to try and run .38 Super loaded Major through a standard .38 Super 1911. The crazy thing is he kept shooting it like that, even after he noticed the problem. "No problem, that is all being contained by the chamber". Then the mag blew out the bottom on a shot and he figured it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 The round will chamber perfectly when the barrel is out of the gun. Drops right in, no push, so it's sized properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabe Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 have you checked the rim of the offending case to see if it is over size. might want to mic some of the cases that do not give you problems and compare. What type of extractor do you have on the gun? If it is a "stock" type extractor it might be set on the tight side and if the case giving you problems is oversize it could be hanging up on the extractor and not allowing the slide to fully return to battery. I cannot comment if you have an aftec since I have no experience with them. If the gun was set up for rimless supers there might not be enough clearance for a regular super case with an oversive rim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 It's a factory Trubor. But, I did not check the rim..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 It's a factory Trubor. But, I did not check the rim..... Yep, mike the rim thickness. If it's too thick it won't want to slide up under the extractor that last little bit and might be causing the problem you've experienced. In Super I've had good luck with Rem and Win Super+P brass, but if I was buying I'd start with Starline. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 All the measurements check out except one. The extractor groove. It's about 8 thousandths over what all my other cases are (.340 normal vs .348 offending piece). Could the failure to feed be caused by the extractor pushing the round to the side, causing it to skew into the chamber? It's not a big problem, I've isolated the offending round, just curious as to why. What I'm really interested in is Who makes this brass? It's nickle, marked with 38SUPER +P 1*OPT on the head stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Check if it's a 9mm breach face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 Check if it's a 9mm breach face. You obviously have not read the entire post. As I said, it's a FACTORY STI TRUBOR in 38 Super. Are you just posting to get your thread/post count up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Check if it's a 9mm breach face. You obviously have not read the entire post. As I said, it's a FACTORY STI TRUBOR in 38 Super. Are you just posting to get your thread/post count up? I think what he was getting at is that for a while STI was making different slides for 9mm and Super. Now they're making them the same for both. If somehow they built a gun with one of the 9mm slides (a tiny ledge on the breachface is the only difference) by accident it could cause oddball problems. I've never heard of anybody finding a factory gun built that way, but maybe someone else has??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 That may be the case in some guns Gman, but like I said in the initial post, it was only happening to this one round, all other 38 super brass functioned flawlessly. I have figured out the problem though. I loaded up 20 rounds of R&P brass, 20 rounds of the 1*OPT brass, all of the R&P brass functioned perfectly, while the 1*OPT brass had 6 failure to feed. The brass mikes all dimensions perfectly (well, within acceptable tolerances) except one, the extractor groove. It (on the 1*OPT brass) is generally .006 - .008 not as deep as the R&P brass. That is the only difference in the brass. Now I'm just wondering who makes this crappy brass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Burtchell Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Check if it's a 9mm breach face. You obviously have not read the entire post. As I said, it's a FACTORY STI TRUBOR in 38 Super. Are you just posting to get your thread/post count up? Dang, GrumpyOne. Lighten up. After all, Powder Finger has been a member since 2003 & has his required 50 post for posting on the Classifieds,if that's what's you are referring to, not you.I don't know about everyone else but, I sure do not appreciate this kind of tone toward another forum member.. I know, I'll probably be the one to get blasted about saying something I'm really not on your case Grumpy, but..... Let's all get along guys ! Edited July 20, 2009 by baerburtchell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 "Let's all get along guys !" ...Because you KNOW what'll happen here if you DON'T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 That may be the case in some guns Gman, but like I said in the initial post, it was only happening to this one round, all other 38 super brass functioned flawlessly. I have figured out the problem though. I loaded up 20 rounds of R&P brass, 20 rounds of the 1*OPT brass, all of the R&P brass functioned perfectly, while the 1*OPT brass had 6 failure to feed. The brass mikes all dimensions perfectly (well, within acceptable tolerances) except one, the extractor groove. It (on the 1*OPT brass) is generally .006 - .008 not as deep as the R&P brass. That is the only difference in the brass. Now I'm just wondering who makes this crappy brass? I did see your post on the extractor groove dimensions and it certainly sounds like you've got it figured out. I was just trying to explain why someone might mention the breachface issue. No idea who makes that brass, but I'd just toss it! I'd stick with name brands like Win, R-P, or Starline. Hornady and Lapua probably make Super brass as well, but I'm not sure; if they do it'll be good. That 1*OPT might actually be made well, just not to the same spec. It's possible that with a little extractor tuning it would work perfectly in your gun, but I wouldn't bother with it....go with the names you know and then you don't have to worry about availability etc. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 My apologies.... .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I had that issue with a high primer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Since you posted that the extractor groove is not as deep as the R-P brass, it seems that the extractor hook is bottoming out in the groove, and then binds in the tunnel for it. Try removing the extractor, and chambering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) That may be the case in some guns Gman, but like I said in the initial post, it was only happening to this one round, all other 38 super brass functioned flawlessly. I have figured out the problem though. I loaded up 20 rounds of R&P brass, 20 rounds of the 1*OPT brass, all of the R&P brass functioned perfectly, while the 1*OPT brass had 6 failure to feed. The brass mikes all dimensions perfectly (well, within acceptable tolerances) except one, the extractor groove. It (on the 1*OPT brass) is generally .006 - .008 not as deep as the R&P brass. That is the only difference in the brass. Now I'm just wondering who makes this crappy brass? I did see your post on the extractor groove dimensions and it certainly sounds like you've got it figured out. I was just trying to explain why someone might mention the breachface issue. No idea who makes that brass, but I'd just toss it! I'd stick with name brands like Win, R-P, or Starline. Hornady and Lapua probably make Super brass as well, but I'm not sure; if they do it'll be good. That 1*OPT might actually be made well, just not to the same spec. It's possible that with a little extractor tuning it would work perfectly in your gun, but I wouldn't bother with it....go with the names you know and then you don't have to worry about availability etc. R, Yeah, I'm not gonna bother with it anymore, just cull all of those cases from the stash and dump 'em . Gonna buy me a couple thousand Winchester brass. Again, many thanks Gman! And everyone else! Edited July 20, 2009 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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