00bullitt Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) The brass is 38 Supercomp by Starline. The load is 8.2grains of N350 loaded to 1.235 under a Zero 125 grain 9mm(.355) bullet. Brass is splitting from the base of the bullet forward to the case mouth. It varies on each piece. Some just have small burned split areas that burn through as it is starting to split where the base of the bullet would be. Some would split all the way up. And some pieces had two splits. But 26 pieces out of 100 were split like this. This was fired in a new top end on a Hardy commander shorty. Barrel is a Clark 38 super. At first I believed it to be a chamber issue so I took it to my smith and he blue printed the chamber with negative plugs and checked with go/no go gauges. Chamber was perfectly in spec. Today went out and fired this ammo in a buddies Bedell gun and another friends Colt 38 super 1911. Brass was splitting in both other guns. Other SC ammo ran fine in this gun today without any issues so it was definitely narrowed down to the ammo and more specifically the brass. No other pressure signs are visible in the undamaged brass. What do y'all think? Sorry my pics aren't Cheely quality.....best I could get out of my 5mp Kodak Edited July 11, 2009 by 00bullitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 In my Bedell shorty I was gettomg 175PF with 8.0gr of N350, WSR primer and a Zero 125JHP at 1.240". What sort of chronograph results are you seeing? 8.2gr could be getting a little toasty and the fact it's doing it in three guns would concern me. Is it the same lot of powder you were using with other brass? For a couple of reasons, new brass will almost always give you higher velocities and pressures than used brass...even once-fired. I'd also compare the case volume on the new brass with other new (or newer) brass from a different lot. If the new brass has a smaller capacity it could be jacking up the pressure as well. Failing all of that I'd call SL and see what they have to say. Maybe they'd be willing to send you 100 cases from a different lot so you could compare? R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjanglin Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Thats a lot of powder in that sort a load, probably should run one or two over the chrono I doubt that it is starlines brass being bad.Id like to know tho. Jim/Pa Saiolors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 I'm not certain on the load because its not mine. The gun belongs to Singlestack. It was having some feed and reliability issues after the new topend was installed that I ironed out for him and this came up in the process. He was not certain if it was 8.2 or not......he was gonna pull a bullet to verify. But would I not see other pressure signs in the undamaged brass if it were hot. The primers are not even flowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) Is the brass as old as SS???? I have had some nickel do that but I had reloaded it 15-20 times.... Edited July 11, 2009 by DrawandDuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 Is the brass as old as SS???? Knowin him......probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This load made 1380 out of my old top end. It was a Shumann Hybricomp comander length AET. I shot it for years without ever any problems. I just pulled a few and the powder weight looked ok but the powder looked strange and it was clumped up. The bottom half of the powder charge was stuck in the case and I had to get a small screw driver to get it out. It has been sitting in a ammo can for about 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This load made 1380 out of my old top end. It was a Shumann Hybricomp comander length AET. I shot it for years without ever any problems. I just pulled a few and the powder weight looked ok but the powder looked strange and it was clumped up. The bottom half of the powder charge was stuck in the case and I had to get a small screw driver to get it out. It has been sitting in a ammo can for about 3 years. I've seen the clumped powder before, but don't know if it means anything. AET's and Hybricomps tend to run slow. The same load in a more standard barrel could be a fair amount zippier....and that's not a dig on Schuemann as they give me shirts and barrels Still, I wouldn't expect cases to split before the primers looked bad....strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This was new brass too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) I pulled one of the bullets from the ammo Singlestack gave me to use for test firing and the at least half of the 8.2 grains of powder was stuck inside the case and kinda clumped up. I used my pick to get it out and then noticed the greenish white looking corrosion line around the inside of the brass. From the base of the bullet down. I'm thinking that some sort of chemical reaction took place inside the case in the 2 years you had this ammo stored. The corrosion is in the area where the splits originate. I can actually physically feel the difference in the brass when scratching the inside of the case with a pick tool. The area that contacts the bullet is not as soft feeling as the area lower in the case. Its noticably softer and more maleable in the corroded section of the brass. Somehow the brass has weakened. I don't believe this to be an issue of too hot of a charge or high pressure as it just didn't feel like it and there are no other visible signs. Edited July 11, 2009 by 00bullitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Sounds like a contamination of some sort. What kind of lube was used? Could it have gotten inside the case and caused some sort of reaction over time? It's not typical for powder to do this on its own. Look at all the commercial ammo that sits on shelves or in warehouses for years. Heck, think about the pull down powder from the 20 year old 30-06 ammo and how reloaders valued that powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Maybe the brass was tumbled with some sort of polish that contained a solvent that touched things off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 Maybe the brass was tumbled with some sort of polish that contained a solvent that touched things off? I've been trying to tell John its probably not a good idea to pee on his brass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Based on Bullitts description it sure sounds like the powder deteriorated and effected the brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I've seen those types of cracks using Armscor brass. Its been maybe 1 or 2 per hundred starting with the first load through its 6th or 7th loading. Corrosion isn't an issue in my case because they haven't sat around long enough start corroding before they're used. I've never had one with starline (or any other brand of brass.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 How's that old saying go...Shoot em 'til they crack, then shoot em once more. Those look like you could use them for a weekday league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I used my pick to get it out and then noticed the greenish white looking corrosion line around the inside of the brass. From the base of the bullet down. I'm thinking that some sort of chemical reaction took place inside the case in the 2 years you had this ammo stored. The corrosion is in the area where the splits originate. That sounds like some pretty damning evidence right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt2ace Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) I used my pick to get it out and then noticed the greenish white looking corrosion line around the inside of the brass. From the base of the bullet down. Yep......Greenish white would indicate a reaction with the copper (greenish) and tin (white) in the brass of the case and the base of the jacket bullet. If the base of the bullet has exposed lead, the white could also be lead oxide. I agree with others posting here that this has to be due to some sort of contamination. I would either dispose of the reloaded cases or pull the bullets to save and throw the rest out. You cannot trust a single case from this batch anymore, unless you pull and inspect the every case. Edited July 11, 2009 by matt2ace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Dillon Rapid Polish and One Shot. I had the same corrosion in the 3 I pulled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 My "standard" load is 8.3 grains of N350 behind a Zero 125 grain jhp, .38 super bullet and sr primers. It chronos about 178 pf out of my Bedell shorty, and it was the same out of my old, Para. I've never has any problems with Starline brass, other than losing them. I bought one lot of Armscore brass, but, even if somebody gave me more for free, I will never load any more. I use Dillon case lube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjanglin Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Powder that is left in bullets that are not sealed can go bad, I dont think N-350 is the type of powder that is meant to be stored loaded for a long time, some cleaning media has a rouge in it to polish and it will react with powder and cause it to become cystal in nature, what you discribed seems to me that the hard powder will cause the brass to get weak, I wouldnt fire those loads break them down use the bullets if they dont look white or green on the bottom , send a few of the brass pieces to starline and ask them if its beeen ruined. Jim/Pa Sailors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Well... there was only about 100 rounds left of the problem batch so I shot it up today. Gun ran great, thanks Tod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Maybe the brass was tumbled with some sort of polish that contained a solvent that touched things off? I've been trying to tell John its probably not a good idea to pee on his brass Like that'll do any good......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Maybe the brass was tumbled with some sort of polish that contained a solvent that touched things off? I've been trying to tell John its probably not a good idea to pee on his brass Like that'll do any good......... You just lucky you was too skeered to show today cuz you woulda had to tote a whoopin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Maybe the brass was tumbled with some sort of polish that contained a solvent that touched things off? I've been trying to tell John its probably not a good idea to pee on his brass Like that'll do any good......... You just lucky you was too skeered to show today cuz you woulda had to tote a whoopin. Even with only one good eye you woulda been a non-issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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