650 maybe not indexing right

[Kevin Kline]

Here is my problem. When I load, about a 1/3 of the time, the primer is a little offset and not perfectly rotated or indexed to the case. I'll have to slightly turn the shellplate to make it line up right and then I can feel the primer seat, otherwise, I feel the primer is not seating right and stops in its tracks, because it is being pushed on the headstamp.

Also, about a 1/3 of the time, when the casefeeder drops a case in and it is being pushed into station 1 for decapping and resizing, the case will be slightly out of the shellplate or leaning out and when pulling the handle down to resize, the case doesn't go in the sizing die and I'll have to stick my finger in there to push it in, just a hair to get it in place. Any solutions?

[ErikW]

The casefeed-to-shellplate issue is in the 650 tips thread.

[shred]

Actually I didn't see this particular problem there...  What I do when that happens is lift up the little ramp and get the powder crumbs out from under it.  That always fixes it until another powder crumb gets in there.  

[timothy]

I think I have been experiencing the same problem but to a lesser extent.  I've loaded around 6000 rounds of 9mm and not had the problem but shortly after starting to reload 40 (all of this also on a 650) I started having the same problem at a rate of about 1 out of 25 rounds.

I can see that the shellplate is slightly too far clockwise (ballpark estimate of .030").  I would end up distorting a lot of primers unless I caught it quick enough.  Same problem as you in station 1.

I called Dillon and their input was that perhaps the metal stop that contacts the black plastic cam ramp needed a little bit of adjustment (it's position is adjustable horizontally).  The ramp is the part that moves up and down with the ram/main shaft.  The metal stop is to the left od the shaft, it's mounted to the frame.  Anyways I adjusted the stop but it didn't help me (perhaps it'll work for you though, who knows).  It seemed to effect the point in time that the shellplate started to rotate but not where it ended up angularly.

One thing did work slightly for me.  I tightened the shellplate shoulder screw to just the exact right amount such that shellplate would come to a stop at a slightly nearer location.  It was almost impossible to tweak the shoulder screw to this position.  But this is a mickey mouse fix and someday I'll get around to calling Dillon again.

Kevin, what caliber are you having the problem with?  Have you / do you have the problem with other calibers?  Please let us know if you figure it out as it doesn't take much of a glitch for one's throughput rate to go down fast.

Anybody else out there have any experience with this?

Regards,

Tim

[Kevin Kline]

Tim,

I load 40 only on my machine. I haven't loaded anything else on it. By the shellplate shoulder screw, are you talking about the bolt in the center of the shellplate? If I tighten that down, I can't cycle the handle, it is stuck. I have to loosen up the screw a little to be able to move the handle and cycle the press.

The other piece you are referring to, is that the one to the left of the shaft/cam under the shellplate (if you are facing the machine)?

Shred,

the little ramp you are referring to, is that the one in station 1 that the case is dropped into and then pushed into place to be resized? It is silver?

Thanks,

[timothy]

Yes the shoulder screw is in the center.  I'm not suggesting you torque it down significantly otherwise yes the shellplate won't even rotate from the friction.  I'm just saying that I tightened it ever so slightly to affect by a tiny amount the position of the shellplate when it indexed (not so tight to make indexing a problem).  Remember also that there is a brass tipped set screw that holds the position of the shoulder screw.  You need to loosen it to adjust the screw then re-tighten it after.  This shoulder screw adjustment only helped me a little and is not correcting the root cause (whatever the root cause is).

Yes the adjustable stop (probably not the right term) is to the left of the shaft/cam under the shellplate (if you are facing the machine.  It is steel, about 3/8" wide, 1/4" thick, 5/8" tall (estimates from memory not actual measurements), if memory serves its tip has a curved profile that mimics the curve of the black plastic cam it contacts.

Anybody else out there experience this problem?  If so please enlighten us to the most robust fix or at least your experience trying to correct it.

Regards,

Tim

[shred]

Kevin, you got it, that silver slide-ramp going into station 1 is the part.  Mine collects grains of powder underneath it every so often, which have to be removed or some cases don't make it all the way in.

[Jerome Poiret]

Kevin,

I had the same problem with off-set primers, but the cause was not in the shell plate: it was the primer revolving plate (disk?) that was not indexing. Check the primer black plastic cam (left of the machine, just under the powder tool) for wear: it might not push the metallic indexing arm all the way. Check also the little tip of this arm (the one that gets into the holes in the primer disk) to see if it's still bent enough.

This cured my problem.

As for the second problem (case not in-line with the 1st tool), tighten the shell plate enough to just make it move, and tune the case pusher (?) in a way that it doesn't push the case too far, causing a rebound; A rebound will also occur if there is a greasy material on it where it touches the case.

[dillon]

Dillon has an alignment tool to fine tune alignment of the shellplate to the primer disc for the 650. Just call and ask for one. it makes it easier to eyeball the adjusting of the cam on the left side of the frame.

 For case insertion, be sure to have a primed case in station two when adjusting the rod that controls how far

the plunger pushes the case into the shellplate. The reason for this is that the primer punch against the primer is the actual physical stop for downward handle movement. If no primed case is present, then everything travels further than it will when actually reloading.

[Kevin Kline]

Dillon,

Thanks a million, really appreciate it. I will call tomorrow and check it, thanks.

[Kevin Kline]

Dillon,

Regarding the case insertion, are you saying put a primed case in station 2, then put an empty case in station 1 and adjust the black piece that accepts and pushes the case into station 1? To adjust it in station 1, just put a case into station 1 and push the black inserting piece against the case in station 1, then tighten down the allen screw that holds it?

Thanks

[Kevin Kline]

Anyone know how to adjust the amount of case insertion into station 1 of the 650 w/ casefeeder? I followed Dillon's rule for this w/ the primed case, but can't find how to adjust station 1 for not over-inserting or under-inserting a case. Also, when I seat my primers, right as the roller handle/arm get to the top, the last little bit of push (I thought I needed to seat the primer all the way) causes my shellplate to "dip" or "tilt" toward the right side. Any suggestions?

[Kevin Kline]

I think I found my problem. I forgot I had a Lee Precision sizing die in. When I put the Dillon sizing die back in, it worked great. I like the Lee die cause it sizes them tighter and seems to all the way down. The Lee die seems to size .001-.004 tighter in the bottom of the case than the Dillon. I have loaded 2400 rounds with the Lee die and have chamber checked every one of them. Every Lee sized case has chamber checked, EVERYTIME. With the Dillon die, about 2-4 out of every 100 loaded doesn't fit the chamber gauge.

Wonder if there is anyway to make the 650 work with the Lee die?

[titandriver]

 Kevin --- here's what works for me on my 650, I load for a 38 Super with the Lee sizing die, so give it a try.

  My two problems were the case insertion (not always deep enough into the shell plate and the very last primer flipping on edge as it entered the rotary primer disc & stopping the works)

 I backed the two screws holding the entire primer housing out three quarters of a turn. Bingo, the cases insert fully everytime and no more flipped primers! Don't know why it works, it just does! Give it a try & see what happens.

[Jerome Poiret]

Kevin,

Keep the Dillon die, and add a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die on last station. This might take care of your 2-4 problematic rounds.

Hope this helps.

[Kevin Kline]

Thanks Rich,

I'll give it a shot. Otherwise, I'm looking into buying a single stage Lee press only to resize the cases in, that's how much I like the Lee die and how well it resizes, but that is a lot of extra work!!

Jerome,

I look into it. When the round doesn't go in the gauge, it is stopped at the bottom or bulge, by the case head. It always goes in at the top by the bullet, it gets stuck at the bottom. I don't know if the crimp die would affect the bulge?

[DBChaffin]

Kevin,

The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die has a carbide sizer ring that sizes down the case in the last station, in effect giving a "post loading size" to the case.  It might would cut down on the belling problem, but I doubt it will do as well as the Lee sizer die you mentioned.  They are only $12 though so it might be worth a try.  

[timothy]

Kevin:

If I understand your April 6th post correctly by "how to adjust the amount of case insertion into station 1" you mean how to adjust how far the case travels into the shellplate right?  As opposed to how far the resizing die goes over the case.

If I'm understanding you correctly then I think you should consider adjusting the 3/8" diameter, vertically oriented, black metal rod (plunger) that contacts the black plastic ramp.  The ramp I'm referring to is the piece that pushes the shell into station 1.  One end of the rod contacts the ramp (which is spring loaded)the other end is threaded and has a nut on it.  Adjusting the elevation of the rod adjusts the travel of the black plastic piece (and of the shell).  Tighten the nut down after you adjust the rod to hold the adjustment.  If I understand Dillon's March 28 post correctly, you should have a primed shell in station 2 when making this adjustment.

I also use a Lee undersized die in station 1 for 40 S&W.  I don't have a problem with the amount of case insertion.  I think that since the dillon die has more of a radius at the mouth it probably is more forgiving of a shell that is off center relative to the resizing die.  But if you tweak the insertion adjustment the lee's smaller radius shouldn't be an issue.

Hope this helps.

By the way have you fixed your problem of the primer being offset relative to the shellplate?  I'm still having an issue with it myself.

Regards,

Tim

[Kevin Kline]

Timothy,

I already tried adjusting the case insertion inward as much as I can and it still wanted to do this. I finally just broke down and got a Lee single station press for about $20 and put the Lee sizing die in it. I now resize and deprime in the single station press and then just load them all in the case feeder. A little extra work, but I now get to inspect the cases a little better by looking at each one of them when going through the Lee single station sizer and don't have the problem of primers going all over anymore, they all come out before going in the 650. Now, the brass loads like new brass, or even better. Man, that Lee die is tight.

Also, I tested to see if it was the Lee die causing the problem. I put the Dillon die back in and the press ran perfect. It had to be the tightness of the Lee die.

DBChaffin,

I'll think about the Lee Crimp die, for only $12, it couldn't hurt. Is the consensus the Lee Crimp die is better?

[DBChaffin]

Kevin, is it a Lee Undersize sizing die?  They have a "U" stamped near the top?  Just curious.  

Another advantage of the factory crimp die is the ease of adjusting the crimp.  Once you get it set, you don't have to fool with lock rings or anything to adjust the crimp.  It has a knob on top to adjust for more or less crimp.  I can't speak for everyone else, but I like mine a lot.