Magnet on belt for USPSA Production:

[badchad]

http://www.ericgrauffel.net/shop/popup_ima...ddd091b718ce34b

I got one of these for my Limited rig, but since I have started shooting Production I pushed all my mag pouches (and magnet) back past my hip and am running the same gear. However when I put a mag on the magnet (say after the start signal in an all mags on table start) would that be a rule infraction for the USPSA? The mag itself is in front of my hip, when stuck to the magnet, the way my set up is now.

[Flatland Shooter]

Per Appendix D4 - Production Division, "Restriction on position of holster and other equipment", see Appendix E3.

And Appendix E3 shows that all equipment is behind the hip bone. Once you stick a magazine on that magnet, it is a mag holder. It and the magazine are equipment, and must comply.

Bill

Edited June 12, 2009 by Flatland Shooter

[mlmiller1]

Following that idea, does that make it a rule infraction on mags on table starts to stuff the mags in the front of your pants? I know a guy can do that in the blink of an eye. Of course he doesn't have the dunlap disease problem I have. hahaha. Me, I gotta suck my gut in so much, it is easier to stuff them in their official pouches.

MLM

[Nik Habicht]

Following that idea, does that make it a rule infraction on mags on table starts to stuff the mags in the front of your pants? I know a guy can do that in the blink of an eye. Of course he doesn't have the dunlap disease problem I have. hahaha. Me, I gotta suck my gut in so much, it is easier to stuff them in their official pouches.

MLM

That move would indicate a transfer to Open.....

[mlmiller1]

That move would indicate a transfer to Open.....

Would it really? I better let him know that. I figured you could do about anything you want with them after the beep.

Thanks

MLM

[Glen]

Following that idea, does that make it a rule infraction on mags on table starts to stuff the mags in the front of your pants? I know a guy can do that in the blink of an eye. Of course he doesn't have the dunlap disease problem I have. hahaha. Me, I gotta suck my gut in so much, it is easier to stuff them in their official pouches.

MLM

That move would indicate a transfer to Open.....

I don't believe that would be the case. The WSB that specifies a table (or other)

placement for magazines, instead of the mandated mag pouch, trumps the division

magazine placement rules. Mags on the table (or elsewhere) makes everyone, even

open shooters, violate the mag placement rules in the appendices. Stuffing a magazine

in a pouch does not undo that violation.

Glen

[Jadeslade]

Following that idea, does that make it a rule infraction on mags on table starts to stuff the mags in the front of your pants? I know a guy can do that in the blink of an eye. Of course he doesn't have the dunlap disease problem I have. hahaha. Me, I gotta suck my gut in so much, it is easier to stuff them in their official pouches.

MLM

That move would indicate a transfer to Open.....

I don't believe that would be the case. The WSB that specifies a table (or other)

placement for magazines, instead of the mandated mag pouch, trumps the division

magazine placement rules. Mags on the table (or elsewhere) makes everyone, even

open shooters, violate the mag placement rules in the appendices. Stuffing a magazine

in a pouch does not undo that violation.

Glen

I think you are correct. At the Georgia State Match 2008, one stage started with gun in holster, empty. The mag used to load after start could be anywhere-waist, pocket, teeth. There was nothing to put it on. There were so many rounds needed, everybody needed all their pouches for reloads. I shot Production and put the mag in my waist right in the middle, per WSB.

[George Jones]

I don't believe that would be the case. The WSB that specifies a table (or other)

placement for magazines, instead of the mandated mag pouch, trumps the division

magazine placement rules. Mags on the table (or elsewhere) makes everyone, even

open shooters, violate the mag placement rules in the appendices. Stuffing a magazine

in a pouch does not undo that violation.

Glen

Well, it's not a violation. The first sentence of Rule 5.2.4 addresses that.

However, after the WSB requirement has been met, the shooter is still bound by the rules in the appendices. Placing the "table mag" in the pocket after the start signal renders it an "additional mag" per the second sentence in 5.2.4, meaning it can't be used until the belt mags are dropped or exhausted.

Alternatively, after the start signal, putting that "table mag" in a position where it does not comply with the requirements of the Division (such as not in a correctly placed pouch or in a pocket) would result in being moved to Open.

P.S. Rule 8.2.3 prohibits a COF from requiring or allowing a shooter touching mag or ammo as start condition.

But the question I see coming now is: Since 5.2.4 says in retention devices, how can you put a mag in a magnet?

[Singlestack]

But the question I see coming now is: Since 5.2.4 says in retention devices, how can you put a mag in a magnet?

I suppose one could say it was in the magnetic field of the magnet. The pouch itself is invisible.

[Nik Habicht]

But the question I see coming now is: Since 5.2.4 says in retention devices, how can you put a mag in a magnet?

Have you been flying Germans around? Physicists? Engineers?

[Nik Habicht]

Following that idea, does that make it a rule infraction on mags on table starts to stuff the mags in the front of your pants? I know a guy can do that in the blink of an eye. Of course he doesn't have the dunlap disease problem I have. hahaha. Me, I gotta suck my gut in so much, it is easier to stuff them in their official pouches.

MLM

That move would indicate a transfer to Open.....

I don't believe that would be the case. The WSB that specifies a table (or other)

placement for magazines, instead of the mandated mag pouch, trumps the division

magazine placement rules. Mags on the table (or elsewhere) makes everyone, even

open shooters, violate the mag placement rules in the appendices. Stuffing a magazine

in a pouch does not undo that violation.

Glen

You're correct --- and that gets you past the Start requirements, and depending on how the stage is set, it might get you through the stage. (Load, shoot, reload, move, finish?)

Once you pick up and stow mags though, you're back to needing to comply with division rules --- so no front pockets, front waistband, etc. if you're shooting production....

[George Jones]

But the question I see coming now is: Since 5.2.4 says in retention devices, how can you put a mag in a magnet?

Have you been flying Germans around? Physicists? Engineers?

Scary, ain't it?

[EkuJustice]

Wouldnt you technically be able to put them all in a pocket and them being used as additional mags. As to placement other than the pocket what would stop someone from grabbing his handful of mags off the table and shooting strong hand only with his 4 single stack mags in his weak hand and then loading from the hand, does not fit with in the distance from belt or location of belt. When the stage starts the mags are in the correct position per the stage description and would seem like they could be stored and used as needed once the buzzer goes off. Look at minimart, the mag for the reload comes from the shelf not the belt so it appears stage description overrules equipment placement on the belt once the buzzer goes off

[Nik Habicht]

Wouldnt you technically be able to put them all in a pocket and them being used as additional mags.

Not if the competitor is shooting production or SS --- those divisions have a restriction on the position and other equipment (mags, pouches). Stow them all in a back pocket --- then you'd probably be o.k. in those divisions too...

As to placement other than the pocket what would stop someone from grabbing his handful of mags off the table and shooting strong hand only with his 4 single stack mags in his weak hand and then loading from the hand, does not fit with in the distance from belt or location of belt.

Nothing --- because we don't define the reloading procedure. There's nothing keeping you from scooping up four mags out of your pouches after buzzer either, and tackling the stage strong hand only, if you wish --- precisely because we don't define what constitutes an acceptable reload.....

When the stage starts the mags are in the correct position per the stage description...

....and would seem like they could be stored and used as needed once the buzzer goes off.

These are two separate concepts --- and the rules do regulate more strictly where equipment can be placed on the shooter's person for production and SS....

Look at minimart, the mag for the reload comes from the shelf not the belt so it appears stage description overrules equipment placement on the belt once the buzzer goes off

Yup it does --- to a point. You can specify that all mags start on the table, you can specify that all reloads must come from the prepositioned mags on the table, etc.

Where you run into problems is when the stage description specifies that all mags are to start on the table, but allow the shooter to pick them up after the start signal. Should the shooter choose to stow mags, he'll need to store them behind his hip if he's to remain division compliant in Production or SS.....

[Flexmoney]

Hmmmmm...

I'm OK with the division requirements for mag pouches, but...

Once we design a shooting challenge like all the mags on the table...I think we need to allow the shooter to figure out how to solve the challenge...or be in conflict with:

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner,...

[Charles Bond]

George/Nik:

Course of fire starts with gun and all mags on the table. Production Shooter starts, runs to table loads gun, pops a spare in his mouth and proceeds to move forward down range engaging targets......has the shooter violated equipment rules in so doing?

[Gary Stevens]

I believe that in situations where the WSB calls for all magazines to be on the table or other location, and movement is required from the original location, that this overrides the division requirement for magazine location.

In other words, in the above scenario, after the buzzer you are on your own to solve the problem. That might be for instance, shooting from the start position, reloading one mag, and putting the other in your mouth as you move through the course.

I have shot courses where the magazines are pre-positioned through the course of fire and picked up as you arrived at that location. If you were required to follow the division requirements for magazine location, all PD and SS shooters would be automatically moved to Open when they reached that stage.

Where I think the magnet on the belt idea fails is in Appendix E-3 that says that the holster and "all" equipment must be behind the forward point of the hip bone. Unless you want to use the magnet as one of your magazine holders, and it is behind the hip bone, then I believe it to be illegal for PD and SS.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[Glen]

George/Nik:

Course of fire starts with gun and all mags on the table. Production Shooter starts, runs to table loads gun, pops a spare in his mouth and proceeds to move forward down range engaging targets......has the shooter violated equipment rules in so doing?

According to the above analysis, the answer is "yes". In the mouth violates the "distance

from the torso" and the "behind the hipbone" criteria for the placement of magazines. Off to

Open we go. Same should be true if the Production shooter held the spare mag in his hand.

Let's expand this question to Open shooters as well. The mag in mouth retention violates

the placement rules for Open. Is the open shooter now out of the match because there is no

way of applying a penalty to him (he's already in Open) or does he get a free pass?

And now my opinion ...

I always understood that you had to be in compliance with the division requirements and

the WSB prior to the start signal, failing which the RO could not start you. After the start signal

it is freestyle subject to the WSB.

Glen

[Gary Stevens]

George/Nik:

Course of fire starts with gun and all mags on the table. Production Shooter starts, runs to table loads gun, pops a spare in his mouth and proceeds to move forward down range engaging targets......has the shooter violated equipment rules in so doing?

According to the above analysis, the answer is "yes". In the mouth violates the "distance

from the torso" and the "behind the hipbone" criteria for the placement of magazines. Off to

Open we go. Same should be true if the Production shooter held the spare mag in his hand.

Let's expand this question to Open shooters as well. The mag in mouth retention violates

the placement rules for Open. Is the open shooter now out of the match because there is no

way of applying a penalty to him (he's already in Open) or does he get a free pass?

And now my opinion ...

I always understood that you had to be in compliance with the division requirements and

the WSB prior to the start signal, failing which the RO could not start you. After the start signal

it is freestyle subject to the WSB.

Glen

So if the division requirements and the WSB are in conflict, what happens then?

Gary

[EkuJustice]

When the stage calls for mags placed off the belt, when the buzzer goes off it is freestyle as the mags on table satisfied the placement for the stage. If its an unloaded start you can load the first one of the table which is fine you don't need to pouch the mag then load the gun. There is nothing that will usually even say you have to store the mags. So if its a non moving situation you just load from the table etc like mini mart. If its movement involved there is nothing to say you cant come back and grab a mag at a time off the table(even though it would be foolish to do so) which would be legal even though the mags arnt within 2 inches.

Look at 3 gun for where all ammo starts on the person. If it is a stage like we shot at the KY state a couple years ago where you have to do a reload where most were shooting prone. Most just grabbed the mag the second the buzzer went off and dropped it. Still followed the rule yet the mag went from the ground into the gun not from the pouch into the gun

[Charles Bond]

It appears we may have a difference between what was intended, what was written, and what is common sense but then again when the rule was written, there were no magnetic magazine retention devices. Personally, I would not consider a mouth, your hand, or even a pocket a "magazine retention device" but that is just me. Since I am one of the rule writers, I have no one to blame but myself.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Charles Bond

[Tin Can]

The WSB overrides the App. E3 ( 5.2.4). Unless it states mags MUST be returned to pouches. I also can not find where a magnet is a "retention device" "specifically designed for that purpose"also 5.2.4

[Nik Habicht]

I believe that in situations where the WSB calls for all magazines to be on the table or other location, and movement is required from the original location, that this overrides the division requirement for magazine location.

In other words, in the above scenario, after the buzzer you are on your own to solve the problem. That might be for instance, shooting from the start position, reloading one mag, and putting the other in your mouth as you move through the course.

I have shot courses where the magazines are pre-positioned through the course of fire and picked up as you arrived at that location. If you were required to follow the division requirements for magazine location, all PD and SS shooters would be automatically moved to Open when they reached that stage.

These are really two different concepts: We've already established that the WSB can require things that would otherwise be a violation of the rules. The difference in the two scenarios is that one is specific about magazine placement (scattered throughout the stage on different props), and the other one is silent on what happens with magazines after the start buzzer (this is typically less of a problem if the entire stage is shot from the table....)

The rulebook appears to be silent on how to deal with that pile of mags on the table other than in the Division appendices, and most WSB's are written simply "all magazines start on the table" which doesn't provide guidance for how to proceed after the buzzer goes off.....

[Sean Gaines]

this is a good topic. I always wonderd on a table start where mags are on table, you grab your gun load your mags in pouches except for 2. Then you load your gun rack the slide, then you grab the other mag and hold in between your ring finger and middle finger. Basically having a mag in your left hand if you are a righty, then when you need to do a reload drop the empty mag, and taking the mag from your left hand and just shooving into the gun. I think it would save you plenty of time, if you practice it, especially where there is a small area to do a reload.

[Flexmoney]

... I also can not find where a magnet is a "retention device" "specifically designed for that purpose"...

Why would that need to be [further] spelled out in the rule book? It is what it is.