Race Holsters

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

What I keep hearing here seems to be the attitude that we shouldn't be talking about this, because there are other issues?

[Carlos]

Agreed. I referred to 2 DQs in my earlier post. And my own "near DQ." All involved dropped (or almost dropped) loaded guns and race holsters.

Why do we DQ? A: to give the shooter time to reflect on a safety/rules infraction. AND to hopefully see to it that it does not happen again.

But, it is not just for the shooter to reflect on what happened. A DQ is there for all to learn from. The incidents I am thinking of would not have happened but for the race holsters used or, at a minimum, the absence of a lock applied at the start signal (all 3 happened with unlocked CR speed holsters).

I think this is a worthwhile safety discussion. AND - I agree witht he earlier post that the poll results suggest NO rule change is likely as far as race holsters or lock use (so there shouldn't be any reason for those 90% voters to get upset or hostile).

Finally, I refuse to design seated stages with a holstered, loaded gun due to 1) race holsters and 2) sweeping. Thoughts?

Sorry guys. A dropped gun falling during the cof is an issue. We DQ for it.

Whatever the holster type...shouldn't it provide a "practical" level of retention?

Edited May 29, 2009 by Carlos

[smokshwn]

I cringe every time someone says "the holster isn't practical" in this thread because the open gun itself is about as impractical as it gets.

BTW, I'm an open shooter.

Again, practical from what perspective.....speed steel, concealed carry, nightstand gun, bullseye pistol, metallic silhouette shooting....it is absolutely the most practical tool if you are trying to shoot as fast and accurately as possible on a USPSA stage!

Same ideas for the holsters...practical for what purpose and what situation?

[Yardbird]

I cringe every time someone says "the holster isn't practical" in this thread because the open gun itself is about as impractical as it gets.

BTW, I'm an open shooter.

Again, practical from what perspective.....speed steel, concealed carry, nightstand gun, bullseye pistol, metallic silhouette shooting....it is absolutely the most practical tool if you are trying to shoot as fast and accurately as possible on a USPSA stage!

Same ideas for the holsters...practical for what purpose and what situation?

Exactly!!

I don't understand why folks are mentioning the practicality/impracticality of the holsters in question.

[smokshwn]

The incidents I am thinking of would not have happened but for the race holsters used or, at a minimum, the absence of a lock applied at the start signal (all 3 happened with unlocked CR speed holsters).

How bout we quit blaming inanimate objects for the absolute failure of their operators!

Whatever holster a shooter may choose to use, it is the operators responsiblity to know its operation and limitations. If the stage, start position, weather conditions, moonphase, etc dictate more tension or a lock then it should be done. If the gun falls out, the operator made an error not the holster.

Edited May 29, 2009 by smokshwn

[zhunter]

The incidents I am thinking of would not have happened but for the race holsters used or, at a minimum, the absence of a lock applied at the start signal (all 3 happened with unlocked CR speed holsters).

How bout we quit blaming inanimate objects for the absolute failure of their operators!

Whatever holster a shooter may choose to use, it is the operators responsiblity to know its operation and limitations. If the stage, start position, weather conditions, moonphase, etc dictate more tension or a lock then it should be done. If the gun falls out, the operator made an error not the holster.

I totally agree!!!!

What do we say when/if someone gets hurt?

[larry cazes]

How bout we quit blaming inanimate objects for the absolute failure of their operators!

Whatever holster a shooter may choose to use, it is the operators responsiblity to know its operation and limitations. If the stage, start position, weather conditions, moonphase, etc dictate more tension or a lock then it should be done. If the gun falls out, the operator made an error not the holster.

Well said. I agree completely and do get a bit hot under the collar when it is suggested that some failing of the equipment is at issue. The best lock or safety of all is in the head. I also DO think a lot of the defensive animosity that the original post and poll got from most was because it DID target those evil "race holsters". Next time try asking a general question directed at ALL holsters that may or may not be safe.

[zhunter]

Larry

I would once again like to point out that I did NOT vote to ban race holsters, only to make them safer. I find it amazing that the vast majority (90%) prefer to think of their performance when very few have not agreed that race holster to have "dropping issues"

[XRe]

when very few have not agreed that race holster to have "dropping issues"

The reason why you don't see most agreeing with that statement is that most don't agree.

[PINMAN44]

I just saw this thread recently. Why does anyone want to ban race holsters? The point of open is to push the boundaries. I.E. people who drive cars, if someone causes an accident usually it's due to the operator. We blame the equipment when it fails. We don't try to get rid of the vehicle. I think that the solution to the problem is the correct type of practice and repeating this over and over. I don't feel that my CR speed holster is unsafe whatsoever. Locked and unlocked the retention is phenomenal. I try to always be cognizant and practice situational awareness for stages that are both seated and standing.

[zhunter]

when very few have not agreed that race holster to have "dropping issues"

The reason why you don't see most agreeing with that statement is that most don't agree.

Dave

If you read this whole thread, there are several who point out having had issues with their race holsters, and others have shared stories that they witnessed.

Why is everyone so against avoiding a potential problem, that would not hurt their ability to compete?

[lcs]

when very few have not agreed that race holster to have "dropping issues"

The reason why you don't see most agreeing with that statement is that most don't agree.

Dave

If you read this whole thread, there are several who point out having had issues with their race holsters, and others have shared stories that they witnessed.

Why is everyone so against avoiding a potential problem, that would not hurt their ability to compete?

Dave isn't here , but I have used every holster except a Ribas and the Ghost is the berries. I shoot open/limited and one holster meets both needs.

My holster is as safe as I am (period). I think we need to put this thread to bed and quit beating a dead horse!

[GentlemanJim]

Gee...the weather looks nice.....aayup

Been doin any Fishin lately....Nope

Hmmm....whats on TV?

Jim

[38supPat]

Hmmm....I've had or used just about every type of raceholster out there starting with Ernie Hills up to the CR I have now. Properly adjusted they are all safe. When the adjustments are improperly set, either by ignorance or an attempt at pushing the envelope, every holster out there is potentially unsafe in some fashion. In 18 years of IPSC/USPSA/Action shooting I have yet to drop a gun, loaded or otherwise. I have seen dropped guns and they were pretty much always from improperly set holsters. Some from just careless handling...if you don't put it in right, or fail to take care when walking around the range, yup, they might come out.

Put the blame on the operators, where it belongs.

If the rule became, "you must use safety, or retention devices on holsters and they can only be deactivated after the buzzer" or something like that, I can pretty much guarantee overnight there would be the same holsters for sale with no retention devices on them, and those already with them would soon be without them.

As for worrying about someone getting hurt. Yup, it can, will and has happened that shooters have been injured during matches. We play with guns, that's the risk. I've been there and I've seen it. Given the number of shooters, matches and stages we've had over the years, it's an anomoly. If you can't live with it, this may not be the sport for you. I've raced cars, everytime you go on the track you run the risk of serious injury or death. There's been a number of deaths at our local tracks over the past 10 years, at least 4 that I can think of right off the top of my head, and more injuries than I care to think about. That's racing. Skydivers sometimes meet unfortunate ends. Footballers, hockey players, even tennis players see far more injuries than we do. We compete in an aggressive sport of speed using real guns and real bullets at real power levels. I'm shocked that we have as few issues as we have had!

[XRe]

If you read this whole thread, there are several who point out having had issues with their race holsters, and others have shared stories that they witnessed.

And yet you ignore the same feedback pointing out similar issues in your beloved kydex... When you're interested in raising holster safety awareness (as opposed to race holster safety awareness), I might be interested in listening. Otherwise, this is a worthless, biased religious war of "my gear is better than your gear". My opinion, of course...

Why is everyone so against avoiding a potential problem, that would not hurt their ability to compete?

Why don't we just not shoot? That would avoid all the problems, completely, and we'd all be equally good at it??

[zhunter]

If you read this whole thread, there are several who point out having had issues with their race holsters, and others have shared stories that they witnessed.

And yet you ignore the same feedback pointing out similar issues in your beloved kydex... When you're interested in raising holster safety awareness (as opposed to race holster safety awareness), I might be interested in listening. Otherwise, this is a worthless, biased religious war of "my gear is better than your gear". My opinion, of course...

Why is everyone so against avoiding a potential problem, that would not hurt their ability to compete?

Why don't we just not shoot? That would avoid all the problems, completely, and we'd all be equally good at it??

Dave

I stated that when I get home, I will do a video of my kydex in the upside down retention test. But, my style of holster is not going to fall forward/tip out of my holster either is it?

[XRe]

If you read this whole thread, there are several who point out having had issues with their race holsters, and others have shared stories that they witnessed.

And yet you ignore the same feedback pointing out similar issues in your beloved kydex... When you're interested in raising holster safety awareness (as opposed to race holster safety awareness), I might be interested in listening. Otherwise, this is a worthless, biased religious war of "my gear is better than your gear". My opinion, of course...

Why is everyone so against avoiding a potential problem, that would not hurt their ability to compete?

Why don't we just not shoot? That would avoid all the problems, completely, and we'd all be equally good at it??

Dave

I stated that when I get home, I will do a video of my kydex in the upside down retention test. But, my style of holster is not going to fall forward/tip out of my holster either is it?

Maybe read what I wrote? I didn't say anything about a retention test or holding your gun upside down in the holster, or whatever. In my 15 years in this game, I can recall being witness to 7 dropped gun events (6 cold guns, 1 hot end-over-end tumble during the draw). 3 of those were with Kydex "carry" style holsters. Every single holster in use, except for duty retention holsters or holsters like a SERPA, could potentially be demonstrated to have a retention problem, depending upon its operation. In practice, its not a significant problem. Making mountains out of molehills to pursue a trumped up religious cause isn't doing anyone any good.

Maybe you can explain how your holster is going to fall out of your holster? But, in my "style of holster", the gun won't tip forward out of the holster, either. The only way to get the gun out is to draw it straight up.

[XRe]

BTW... lest it get taken the wrong way, I more find this thread to be silly and sad, rather than angering or something.... If we actually had a safety issue - a real one - we'd already know about it, and you would commonly hear of people DQ'ing due to these so-called "unsafe" holsters. Instead, you've just got a silly pissing contest. Let it go, man.....

[PINMAN44]

"Why don't we just not shoot? That would avoid all the problems, completely, and we'd all be equally good at it??"

I agree with Dave, If you worried about the possibilities then go play a safe game like chess.

I think people should check their equipment before every use and exercise proper judgment.

[smokshwn]

Larry

I would once again like to point out that I did NOT vote to ban race holsters, only to make them safer. I find it amazing that the vast majority (90%) prefer to think of their performance when very few have not agreed that race holster to have "dropping issues"

Z, your concern for safety would be much better taken if you were trying to make all holsters safer....not just the ones you don't use anymore.

Dave

If you read this whole thread, there are several who point out having had issues with their race holsters, and others have shared stories that they witnessed.

Why is everyone so against avoiding a potential problem, that would not hurt their ability to compete?

Yes there are several stories but, again Z, the issues were not with the holster....they were with the operator.

BTW... lest it get taken the wrong way, I more find this thread to be silly and sad, rather than angering or something.... If we actually had a safety issue - a real one - we'd already know about it, and you would commonly hear of people DQ'ing due to these so-called "unsafe" holsters. Instead, you've just got a silly pissing contest. Let it go, man.....

Exactly....the holster issue is a non starter from the standpoint of safety issues. IF you truly want to improve safety continue working on the shooter.

Edited May 30, 2009 by smokshwn

[larry cazes]

Larry

I would once again like to point out that I did NOT vote to ban race holsters, only to make them safer. I find it amazing that the vast majority (90%) prefer to think of their performance when very few have not agreed that race holster to have "dropping issues"

"ALL" holsters have so called "dropping issues" if they are not used responsibly. What is the point? I should have stopped with this thread after my first post. It has become silly and absurd. I'm Done......Tennis anyone?

[Flexmoney]

... and you would commonly hear of people DQ'ing due to these so-called "unsafe" holsters.

I'm not sure that is the whole story.

We don't DQ shooters for dropping their gun outside the cof. If we did...and many have suggested we should...then we'd see a lot more DQs. I know I would have 2 (currently at none).

And, we design stages that take the holstered gun out of the equation (gun on table starts when we have 'weird" start positions).

[Flexmoney]

Z, your concern for safety would be much better taken if you were trying to make all holsters safer....not just the ones you don't use anymore.

All holsters. That is the discussion that I keep trying to have. Everybody seems caught up with emotion and defending their favorite holster.

[vernbo]

Z, your concern for safety would be much better taken if you were trying to make all holsters safer....not just the ones you don't use anymore.

All holsters. That is the discussion that I keep trying to have. Everybody seems caught up with emotion and defending their favorite holster.

No the discussion we seem to be having after 5 days and seven pages.

why can’t 91% of you understand , the few posters in the 9% group

will keep telling us that our vote on the question

“Are Race Holsters safe as the rules are at this time?”

Must be changing our vote by now.

Anybody want to change your vote.

[XRe]

That is the discussion that I keep trying to have.

Read what you wrote again. The discussion you keep trying to have. The discussion the OP keeps trying to have is entirely different. None of us seem to be talking to you. We're talking to the OP.

(eta the cheers smiley.... that read grumpy, and I didn't intend that )

Edited May 30, 2009 by XRe