Nik Habicht Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 So.. Surrender start. I'm the RO and I tell you to LAMR. You assume the start position and I walk up, grab your pistol out of your holster, toss it on the ground, are you responsible?The only difference between my example and the OP's is intent. Try that at my club --- or at any club in my section. You'll be persona non grata pretty quickly ---- and that's a way different situation from the one suggested by the OP...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Is it reasonable to hold the shooter accountable for their gun? IIRC, that's been the NROI position. It is my position..... You choose to play a sport with a gun --- you are responsible for everything that happens to that gun, from your choice of gun, smithing services utilized, holster and ammo selection, to actually pointing it in the proper direction, following the four rules, etc...... I don't care (unless I'm overruled by NROI/RM) if an earthquake or a flashflood knocks a gun out of your holster during the course of fire --- you're responsible, and I'll very reluctantly inform you of a match DQ. Understand I'll hate that --- as I've hated every one of the handful of DQs I've issued --- but I believe the onus is on the shooter... So.. Surrender start. I'm the RO and I tell you to LAMR. You assume the start position and I walk up, grab your pistol out of your holster, toss it on the ground, are you responsible? The only difference between my example and the OP's is intent. Lets not get into examples that may be silly. After all... What if I MR and holster...then you (RO) lightly lay your hand on my shoulder to ask/tell me something (correct hand position?)...and my gun falls out [of my magnetic holster]? Your gone. In your example, the RO did not touch the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I can easily understand where Nik is coming from. Past threads...and guru-rule-guy opinions...lean toward the shooter being responsible, no matter what. I wouldn't expect somebody to change their mind immediately...if they had half a decade of thinking the call was the other way. I know I can only get there (no DQ) by one word in the rule book. Further, I am morally torn a bit. I'm not nearly as concerned about what call to make (whether the fault is the shooter's or the RO's) as I am about keeping everybody safe. Whatever the wording of the rule and whoever gets the "fault"...we still have a loaded gun tumbling to the ground with a number of people in the immediate area. Flex sums it up pretty well. Looking hard at the rulebook and reading the specific rules cited --- it's pretty hard to make that call. On the other hand it's incredibly easy to hang it on Rule 10.5 --- Unsafe Gun Handling. Is that the right call though? I'm not certain I "KNOW" the answer --- but I'm with flex in that the possibility of a loaded gun tumbling to the ground in close proximity to a bunch of people concerns me greatly..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 After all... What if I MR and holster...then you (RO) lightly lay your hand on my shoulder to ask/tell me something (correct hand position?)...and my gun falls out [of my magnetic holster]? Your gone. In your example, the RO did not touch the gun. Nah...you bumped me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 So.. Surrender start. I'm the RO and I tell you to LAMR. You assume the start position and I walk up, grab your pistol out of your holster, toss it on the ground, are you responsible?The only difference between my example and the OP's is intent. Try that at my club --- or at any club in my section. You'll be persona non grata pretty quickly ---- and that's a way different situation from the one suggested by the OP...... I agree that a ass-whoopin would be in order. However, the only difference is the OP's RO did not intend to dislodge the pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 After all... What if I MR and holster...then you (RO) lightly lay your hand on my shoulder to ask/tell me something (correct hand position?)...and my gun falls out [of my magnetic holster]? Your gone. In your example, the RO did not touch the gun. Nah...you bumped me. If I bump ya like that your gonna have a lot more to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Heck, you probably tripped and fell into me...lol (I know...I know...it's not your fault. It was the dang shoe laces. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 ... In light of all the opinions that holster choice is completely immaterial ... I DON'T think it is immaterial at all!!!!!! ..... little more than gravity is holding it in there. I further rest my case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Heck, you probably tripped and fell into me...lol Is that what you told her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Heck, you probably tripped and fell into me...lol Is that what you told her? Heeeeeeeyyy... You took something innocent...and made it dirty. (Look at us...zhunter is still talking about holsters and WE are drifting the thread. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 (Look at us...zhunter is still talking about holsters and WE are drifting the thread. ) I know ..and holsters ain't got a thing to do with it either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Nik - I have to disagree. If a RO comes in to contact with me, forcing me to break 180, how is that the shooter's fault (and in your answer resulting in a DQ)? On the discharge, there are too many factors involved there without a specific case (i.e. was the shooter actively engaging and then fired inadvertantly due to contact).Rich ETA: 8.6.4 covers this that the competitor "may" be subject to 10.3, however, I would like to think that we can agree that if the competitor is doing his or her thing and through contact by another, that shouldn't have been there, it forces them to break 180, that we'd see it's not his fault and therefore not a DQ. That hasn't been the position of my instructors --- they've held pretty firmly to the notion that the shooter is responsible for the direction of the gun.... Then your instructors didn't instruct well and that is what is in the rulebook. I do not agree with a LOT of what's in the rulebook, but that's the rules of the game that we play in. My instructors taught me to use the rules as a guide, see the bigger picture and always have the shooters interest high with safety always first. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 <grumble> All this talk of guns falling out, or being knocked out of holsters, is bad Ju Ju. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 (Look at us...zhunter is still talking about holsters and WE are drifting the thread. ) I know ..and holsters ain't got a thing to do with it either They do if we out-law all the race holsters. Well, except for the one I use..of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The holster is an issue in this thread. I am willing to bet that it was a race holster that caused this incident!!! As the RO's hand was moving in most likely an arc with timer in hand to start, his hand hit the butt of the gun from behind and this is most likely what caused the gun to fall out of the holster. THIS would NOT have happened with a Blade-Tech type holster. Argue all you want, but it would NOT have happened. And I am NOT going to be dragged into the dirty talk either. My opinion is, NO DQ Along with the guy needing to address his holster issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 If the holster is what caused the issue then cars cause drunk driving. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 If the holster is what caused the issue then cars cause drunk driving.Rich And forks make people fat too Let's put it this way, the race holster allowed this incident to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The holster is an issue in this thread.I am willing to bet that it was a race holster that caused this incident!!! Now why ya wanna drag a perfectly legal piece of equipment into this crazy discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Pretty sure it was still the RO's fault it did happen. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The holster is an issue in this thread.I am willing to bet that it was a race holster that caused this incident!!! As the RO's hand was moving in most likely an arc with timer in hand to start, his hand hit the butt of the gun from behind and this is most likely what caused the gun to fall out of the holster. THIS would NOT have happened with a Blade-Tech type holster. Argue all you want, but it would NOT have happened. And I am NOT going to be dragged into the dirty talk either. My opinion is, NO DQ Along with the guy needing to address his holster issue The guy doesnt need to address his holster but the fact that the ro is too close. You can ro effectively without being in the guys space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Now why ya wanna drag a perfectly legal piece of equipment into this crazy discussion? Is the "legal" holster really that safe?? Pretty sure it was still the RO's fault it did happen.Rich Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Is it reasonable to hold the shooter accountable for their gun? IIRC, that's been the NROI position. It is my position..... You choose to play a sport with a gun --- you are responsible for everything that happens to that gun, from your choice of gun, smithing services utilized, holster and ammo selection, to actually pointing it in the proper direction, following the four rules, etc...... I don't care (unless I'm overruled by NROI/RM) if an earthquake or a flashflood knocks a gun out of your holster during the course of fire --- you're responsible, and I'll very reluctantly inform you of a match DQ. Understand I'll hate that --- as I've hated every one of the handful of DQs I've issued --- but I believe the onus is on the shooter... I agree completely that the competitor is responsible for his gun. But explain to me how I can comply with the WSB (very few, if any allow you to have your hand on the gun at the start position) and keep the RO from knocking my gun out of the holster. If you are my RO, and at LAMR I ask you to take a couple of step back, are you going to comply? What other reasonable recourse do I have to ensure the gun stays in my holster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 If the holster is what caused the issue then cars cause drunk driving.Rich +1 Well I follow the rules the best I can and love this sport, but if I was told to make ready and was waiting for the start signal and the RO caused my gun to fall to the ground and I got DQ'd from it and that flew at NROI level, I would find another sport. DQ'ing a shooter here is like blaming a guy that got car jacked because he stopped at a light, doesn't even make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Now why ya wanna drag a perfectly legal piece of equipment into this crazy discussion? Is the "legal" holster really that safe?? That is a totally different topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Santiago Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 See...when we start getting into the logic(?) of "who's fault"...nobody ends up being acting responsible. Goes back to my Army days. You were responsible for a weapon from the moment you checked it out of the armory until the moment you returned it. No excuses. REALLY! Hypothetically, I walk up to you, physically take your loaded gun from you, shoot you. You were responsible for the outcome? yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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