lugnut Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 (edited) I know there is a lot of information on this scattered about the forum on this but I couldn't find a real explaination or fix. I've been using Berry 147gr bullets in my Glock for many, many thousands of rounds without a problem at all. Now, since I can't find any Berrys I have purchased a bunch of MG 147gr bullets. I use a very light crimp using all Hornady Dimension dies and never had an issue. However I've noticed that in my batch of a couple hundred rounds with the MG I have had a few bullets pushed back into the case! One wouldn't chamber and when I got the round out the bullet was pushed into the case quite a bit! I found another today that I was able to push the bullet in the case with my fingers while just checking a few. I know the MG are .355" and the Berrys are .356" but not sure if that is the reason the MG bullets won't hold. I had a long discussion with a couple guys that said I needed to use more crimp- that the crimp would help prevent the set back. We argued for a while as I had the understanding the the case tension created after sizing is what held the bullet- not the crimp! As a test I resized the same cartridge (and bullet) and used a heavier crimp.... it held tight!! What the heck! Edited May 25, 2009 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 After I posted this I checked the remaining hundred + or so rounds... I found three rounds that I could push in the bullet. ALL were 'I' brass! Is this brass junk? None of the other- Win, R&P, PMC, Fed - exibited this problem with a "normal" crimp!! I'm not sure what cases did this earlier today... This is so frustrating.. as I was going for a long time before any problems!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Could you clarify, are you only having the issue with one headstamp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I had a similar issue with brass from 9mm blazer brass ammo not sizing enough in a hornady 9mm sizing die. It was thin brass. I switched to a 9mm U-die for sizing cases to be used with 0.355 bullets; no more setback problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 *I* brass is good in my book. I got a bunch of it a while back and they last just as long as win/r-p etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 Could you clarify, are you only having the issue with one headstamp? I only have made up few hundred rounds with the MG bullets so far. I'm not 100% sure what the headstamps were on the brass at the range today- except for one. Stupid me I didn't recall. When I got home I checked all my remaining loads... the only three cartridges that I could push the bullet in (with my thumb and finger) was 'I' (Independance?). I'm going to pull bullets and try to measure the case wall thickness now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I had the same thing happen with a press set up to load plated bullets when I switched to jacketed. I had to increase my crimp. As I understand it... plated bullets are softer and need less crimp than the harder jacketed bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Another thing to check is to make sure you are only belling the case the minimum you need to seat the bullet. Too much bell will cause not enough neck tension to grip the bullet right. When you bell the case too much and then crimp too much the brass can "spring" back and you have tension at the end of the case mouth, but the bottom area of the case that normally holds the bullet really tight is loose. Been there and done that..... Good luck, DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Yeah- I only bell enough to just barely get the bullet base in the case. I'm still getting mixed messages of what should hold the bullet. It was my understanding that the case tension along the side of the bullet in the case holds the bullet... the crimp is just to remove the bell... not hold the bullet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 If you don't have enough case neck tension, all the crimp in the world won't really help. Different brands of brass will have different wall thicknesses. So while you're sizing your cases to pretty much the same OD they will have different ID's and different amounts of case tension because of the different wall thicknesses. Good reason to use same brand brass. Lee dies seem to do the best job of sizing brass to spec and you can get undersize (Lee) dies from EGW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmitchl Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Check your brass with a magnet. I can't speak for "I" headstamp, however, I recently found that S&B cases are now brass plated steel. Perhaps other manufacturers are following suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 If you don't have enough case neck tension, all the crimp in the world won't really help. Different brands of brass will have different wall thicknesses. So while you're sizing your cases to pretty much the same OD they will have different ID's and different amounts of case tension because of the different wall thicknesses. Good reason to use same brand brass. Lee dies seem to do the best job of sizing brass to spec and you can get undersize (Lee) dies from EGW. That's what I thought as well Tom wrt what really holds the bullet. In 9mm loads for the Glock I wansn't too fussy with what I used at matches. I think this has changed my persepctive now. I did try using a RCBS sizing die and that seems to help the 'I' cases hold the bullets better! I just ordered an EGW/Lee die but it may be months till I get it due to backorders... I think here are things that may have contributed to this recent issue: *MG bullets .001" less diameter *Thin cased, possibly many times fired brass *MG bullet with flat tip (hits ramp harder vs round nose?) *Marginal Hornady die (since RCBS seems to tighten things up) *Too light of crimp previously... although as discussed this shouldn't hold the bullet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Yeah- I only bell enough to just barely get the bullet base in the case. I'm still getting mixed messages of what should hold the bullet. It was my understanding that the case tension along the side of the bullet in the case holds the bullet... the crimp is just to remove the bell... not hold the bullet... If you take two bullets and hold them up one on top of the other, noses pointing in opposite directions, you should see a smooth transition from the bullet to the case. If the case is sticking out, then there is not enough crimp. The most obvious symptom of insufficient crimp is that the bullet can be pushed down into the case. 9mm uses a taper crimp in the seating die which removes the bell. A plated bullet is softer and will allow that crimp to be easily applied. A jacketed bullet requires more "force" be applied. A lot of people use a separate crimp die for 9mm, with the Lee Factory Crimp die being a popular choice. These dies add a slight roll crimp to the case and can be used to fine tune the crimp. These dies also act as a "full length" sizer which helps improve chambering. Disclaimer: I'm not a reloading expert, nor do I play one on television, I'm just passing along what knowledge others have given me and that I have found helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 You should not need to use an EGW sizer on 9mm. A couple things to consider. Of all the taper crimp dies I have used none have performed better than Dillons. Use (if you haven't already) a factory loaded round as a "feeler gauge". Unscrew the taper crimp die and run you loaded round up. Hold it there. Screw the taper crimp die down until it comes into firm contact. Tighten lock ring. Load a few dummies. Using thumb pressure push the bullet into the edge of your bench and measure OAL. If your bell and taper is adjusted correctly the bullet will hold. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 If you have enough case tension you shouldn't be able push the bullet farther into the case with your fingers before you crimp. The crimp does help but if you don't have enough case neck tension you're in trouble. Try a standard Lee sizing die. They're inexpensive and much more available than the undersize version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I've been having a similar problem with some of my .38SC loads- especially when using Starline brass with multiple reloadings. The cases have been thinned enough that they no longer hold the bullet tightly. I use a compressed load, so the overall length is too long to feed in my pistol. Of course it took me screwing up two stages in one match to decide to start gaging my loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 Since I switched to an RCBS die the problems have gone away. Same brass works fine now with the MG bullets. I certainly won't use the 'I' brass for major matches though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vetts1911 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) Mic out your bullets, I had some 40 155 bullets that were doing the same thing to me. I looked at every thing. Then on a whim I just went and checked the bullets. Yeah I had a few under sized bullets and it was not much only .001 or .002. Anyway I called three times and I never got a word back so I now use Precision Delta and Zero now. After buying Montana Gold Bullets for about 6 or 8 years straight and bragging about how great they were not any more with that response. They can keep them. Edited July 4, 2009 by vetts1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1SOW Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) I loaded 150 MG 124 CMJs today. I was using Win brass. I pulled the handle on one to seat the bullet and it felt really soft. I checked and I had mixed an FC in with the Wins. The bullet was definitely looser in the case. I tested and it would set back just like you discussed. I use the Lee FCD and this case was still loose, but the Wins weren't. The FC loaded measured .377 at the mouth. I've been criticized for sorting 9mm brass, but reloading has a lot of variables. I prefer to illiminate any variable I can. Edited July 4, 2009 by 1SOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vetts1911 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Not a bad idea to sort your brass. When you want to be very consistant it helps. I have done the same thing for years. It matters too when you shoot military brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I've been having a similar problem with some of my .38SC loads- especially when using Starline brass with multiple reloadings. The cases have been thinned enough that they no longer hold the bullet tightly. I use a compressed load, so the overall length is too long to feed in my pistol. Of course it took me screwing up two stages in one match to decide to start gaging my loads. Not to hijack the tread---I load 38SC range brass and know for sure some of my brass is +5 loadings and never have set back issues. LEE undersize die is used on all my die sets, 38SC, 9MM, 9 Major, and 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 lugnut, I'm not a so called expert, but I've loaded all kinds of 9 mm brass for practice and 9 major loads. Long OAL, short OAL, and different bullets including Berry. Also had compressed loads with different powders. Since day one I have used a Lee undersize die and never had a set back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Take the expander plug out and mic it. It may be slightly oversized. Chuck it up in a drill press and "polish" with fine emery cloth. It won't take much and if there are any tool marks, removing them will make the press operation smother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 Take the expander plug out and mic it. It may be slightly oversized. Chuck it up in a drill press and "polish" with fine emery cloth. It won't take much and if there are any tool marks, removing them will make the press operation smother. Great point. I was using the Hornady PTEs and I did this as well! However when I ran into this problem I just switched the sizing die to my RCBS and it worked well on the 'I' brass that I was having an issue with. I "polished" the PTE to give me some extra comfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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