Sako92S Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Before all you he-manly Saiga shooters kill each other, the FIRST straight in mag well/set up I ever saw was in Terni Italy at the first European Shotgun Championships in 2003, on a Russian open Molot, and HE got the IDEA from a guy in FINLAND, so unless all yall, started making these back in 2003, I would chalk all of this up to parallel development. OH yea BTW it had a comp on it that looked alot like the ones pictured...way back in 2003....HMMMM....pesky Russians! Oh and just to stir the pot, ALL the Mags I have seen for the Molots/Veprs/Saigas overseas have been.....BLACK Yes, lot of those good innovations came from Finnish guy called Jumikuula aka JamShot. he invented the aluminium magwell to the Saiga and aluminium shark type brake etc. All that was aprox. 5 years ago. I know this fellow. He was the only guy in Finland who could make me stock adapter for telescoping stock to Rem 1100. It was manufactured from AR-15 tube, stock and buffer system. There was also pistol grip on that adapter. Here is a picture of that gun: Anyways here is my current Molot in competition configuration. Thaks to Alex W helping me on some issues I got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I'm not even a Saiga fan and that bottom picture gets my blood pumpin. May have to repace my Wonder Woman poster with it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sako92S Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The same gun in action on IPSC shotgun match last April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyRumore Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) Just another reason I no longer build guns for competition. Just look at this thread........... Tony Rumore Tromix Corp Edited May 16, 2009 by TonyRumore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 The same gun in action on IPSC shotgun match last April. Cool - how does that drum run for you ? It looks like it fits in via the mag well, which is something the MD drum does not do. Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Just another reason I no longer build guns for competition. Just look at this thread...........Tony Rumore Tromix Corp I don't get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamShot Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 He was the only guy in Finland who could make me stock adapter for telescoping stock to Rem 1100. Funny how it looks bended in picture. (As does Molot's stock too...) I had enough problems to make multiple bends for carrier link for smooth cycling with straight buffertube. And now it seems to point up! Anyway, I disagree with this "only guy" statement. I bet that SLB-version would have been neat. And to be clear I did not invent magwell for Saiga. There were another Saiga-victim that equally frustrated to Saiga had a drive for muzzle brake, better ergonomics, low optics, +2 pads, magwell and elimination of sharp edges. ...We had bled several times thaks to Saiga's malfunctions and sharp corners. So, since there were no race-parts for Saiga available at the time it was hard to copy anything. But to do things right I made some research to cover more point of views and found one picture of Saiga's factory magwell and plenty from SPAS-15 and USAS-12. And if my FAL had magwell and Glock +6 pads then why leave Saiga untouched? As a result there was a magwell for rock'n'lock mags. Just 8 round capacity was solved in form of adding another mag after another topped with +2 pad for extra space. Cobra reddot or any sight sitting on top of the rail were prone for breaking and too high, so indestructible Docter 2+ was chosen to be seated as low as can be to avoid additional cheek pieces. (Both Docters have broken once within Team ShitBird alone BTW...) Better ergonomics ment changing stock, pistol grip, tinkering reachable mag release and making safety easilly operated. After polishing and rounding some sharp corners Saiga was in shape to participate matches. Muzzle brake was more for a show but it works too... Drum is still in drawings buried on pile of to-do-things, but why to hurry since 19 round stick is pretty competive against 20 round drums. ...Or would you not agree Sako92s? There it was though, 19+1 round, low optic sight, two muzzle brakes, magwell, ergonomic changes and some paint. (Skull-smileys came from one visionary guy. Thanks to him. ) This has been here before but it has it all: That Aimpoint-copy is there for testing purposes only. It still keeps going strong and has 4000 shot behind it. A bit too high if you ask me... Stay tuned for R&R Targets 19 round stick mag. You may call me pessimist but >16 rounds and accidentally dropping mags tend to go together. I have experienced it and seen that far enough. Saiga has tolerances that exceed all tolerances. -JumiKuula aka JamShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sako92S Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Better ergonomics ment changing stock, pistol grip, tinkering reachable mag release and making safety easilly operated. After polishing and rounding some sharp corners Saiga was in shape to participate matches. Muzzle brake was more for a show but it works too... Drum is still in drawings buried on pile of to-do-things, but why to hurry since 19 round stick is pretty competive against 20 round drums. ...Or would you not agree Sako92s? There it was though, 19+1 round, low optic sight, two muzzle brakes, magwell, ergonomic changes and some paint. (Skull-smileys came from one visionary guy. Thanks to him. ) Stay tuned for R&R Targets 19 round stick mag. You may call me pessimist but >16 rounds and accidentally dropping mags tend to go together. I have experienced it and seen that far enough. Saiga has tolerances that exceed all tolerances. -JumiKuula aka JamShot Don't be so modest. It's basically your fault that I bought magazine fed shotgun. If I had used stick magazines only on last competition my % would be much higher but not beat your 100%. But anyway drum is fun and when it works it can be competitive against sticks. Hah, you have seen that video of me dropping 16 rd magazine with flying rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Back to the original question.... What to do The stock trigger system just plain sucks..so a tapco is the best solution..g2 single hook When you change this out and go to pistol grip config...you have to use a number of US made parts to make the thing compliant with 922r. A shortened gas system,reporting the gas system and barrel porting with comps makes a soft and fast gun. jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 JamShot.. That is a great pic of a stock adapter that actually gets the stock up and in line with the bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamShot Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) JamShot..That is a great pic of a stock adapter that actually gets the stock up and in line with the bore. Actually it lines the eye with iron sights. ...And low optics. Everything else is just bonus. (I HATE additional cheeck pieces!! ) But what to do: Ergononics (Pistol grip, stock, safety...), bigger capacity, better aiming device, more reliability (Feed), some more reliability (Extract), even more reliability (Nicely functioning mags) and reliability (No dropping mags). Mag changes can be done fast even without magwell and now when drum can keep enough ammo for 95% of the stages I would go with smaller silhouette reliable drum instead of magwell and loo-ong stick mags. If stock sits nicely against your shoulder it doesn't kick much. So, take care of the proper stock fit before muzzle brakes. Anyone shooting clays will tell you the same. But since I'm only looking this mostly from IPSC perspective (since I do not know 3gun rules that well) I might be wrong too. -JumiKuula aka JamShot Edited May 19, 2009 by JamShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiropro Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 WOw this is quite a bit to keep up with I just started to get a game plan on my saiga 12. I just hit a road block with my AGP mags not even feeding. But AGP says they will make them 100% so I guess I will start there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronswin Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Back to the original question....What to do The stock trigger system just plain sucks..so a tapco is the best solution..g2 single hook When you change this out and go to pistol grip config...you have to use a number of US made parts to make the thing compliant with 922r. A shortened gas system,reporting the gas system and barrel porting with comps makes a soft and fast gun. jim Jim, I went with the G2 Double-hook trigger and applied some stoning and polishing to the FCG to get a very decent trigger pull for my Saiga-12. The AK trigger group can be carefully adjusted to give a trigger equalling some AR triggers. IMHO a shortened gas system may be a little overkill as the Saiga has to one of softest shooting shotguns produced right out of the box. RonSwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Jim, I went with the G2 Double-hook trigger and applied some stoning and polishing to the FCG to get a very decent trigger pull for my Saiga-12. The AK trigger group can be carefully adjusted to give a trigger equalling some AR triggers. IMHO a shortened gas system may be a little overkill as the Saiga has to one of softest shooting shotguns produced right out of the box. RonSwin Overkill? Never! hahaha. This is a competition gun, the more you do to releive recoil, the better. However, to each their own, right? MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronswin Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 (edited) Point taken as we are discussing competition. It's possible Marshall Zhukov during WWII once looked at a new T-34 tank and thought "Hmmm...how can we make this thing tougher and cheaper???" RonSwin Edited May 21, 2009 by ronswin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMAJOR Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) I have a stock Saiga 12 and some Surefire 12 round mags. Bought a magwell......what else should be done to make it run, mods, changes? Single hook trigger, double hook? Want to get it right the first time. In my humble opinion you can not beat a saiga for USPSA shotgun, If you want a Saiga built by IPSC racers, get a GoGun by ETAC. Their web site has LOTS of pics. I think they are state of art in go fast Saigas www.gogun.us Or if you really want to do it your self ETAC posts all the pics for doing it with hand tools. If you simply want a starting place for DIY visit the Saiga 12 forum Vhttp://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=49 s PS my opinion Single hook better for IPSC , Double hook better for full auto applications Edited June 9, 2009 by MRMAJOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 In my humble opinion you can not beat a saiga for USPSA shotgun,If you want a Saiga built by IPSC racers, get a GoGun by ETAC. Their web site has LOTS of pics. I think they are state of art in go fast Saigas www.gogun.us Wow! Those look like some quality builds. Anyone know if these guys have competition to price compare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMAJOR Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 In my humble opinion you can not beat a saiga for USPSA shotgun,If you want a Saiga built by IPSC racers, get a GoGun by ETAC. Their web site has LOTS of pics. I think they are state of art in go fast Saigas www.gogun.us Wow! Those look like some quality builds. Anyone know if these guys have competition to price compare? I believe like most competition guns, the sky is the limit depending on exactly what custom configuration you want. All their prices are listed on their web site. They have a basic conversion for $499 that would at least get you started but if you want all the goodies for serious competition. It would likely be north of 1,000 and maybe 2,000 if you got the works. I think their prices are on customer supplied firearms like most custom shops, but they say they have Saigas in stock for conversion and that in itself is hard to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I know that I wasn't especially impressed with the quality of saiga conversions until I saw Jims. While his is a one off masterpiece, for package jobs, these gogun Saigas seem to have a lot more attention to detail than the average conversion I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philg80 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Jack Travers is the way to go if you want to buy a gun already to go. I have been shooting a Saiga for 4 years now. Way before it was "COOL" to shoot a Saiga. I have had my ups and downs with the platform but here is what I am running and it works perfect for me. Double Hook Tapco-cut the right hook off to make a "fence" to keep the spring in place. From experience this can jump over and lock your disconnector back essentially making your gun single shot. Jack has a new spring that fixes this problem for single hood trigers. Tapco T6 AR style stock Ergo Suregrip like on my AR Hi Viz PBS Fiber Optic Sight-Plain Barrel Sight that clamps onto the front gas block with a few minor modificaitons Jack Travers Magwell for the Surefire Magazines R and R Racing Mag release to be able to release magazines with my thumb without removing my hand from grip R and R Racing Safety built with permission from Jack Travers The last item I want and do not have is a PolyChoke. Some like to have internal chokes installed, but the Polychoke does the same and is less labor intensive. The last thing to do is to make a feed ramp with a dremel or die grinder on the bottom and sides of the Saiga chamber to help with feeding and don't be cheap on shells. Use either Winchester AA or Remington STS shells. They tend not to deform in the magazines and while feeding into the chamber. Hope this helps people decide. This setup works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Q Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 This is a another great item we have just received. Allows you to grab your charging handle in a hurry. These slide over the existing handle and locks down with a set screw. It will work on all Saiga Rifles and Shotguns and all the AK's I have tried. http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/se...il?sfs=759656aa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMAJOR Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 The last thing to do is to make a feed ramp with a dremel or die grinder on the bottom and sides of the Saiga chamber to help with feeding and don't be cheap on shells. Use either Winchester AA or Remington STS shells. They tend not to deform in the magazines and while feeding into the chamber. Really good to get advice from a guy with lots of experience, thanks philg80 This is real interesting problem that is for real and can ruin your day. This problem has come up before. I agree amo selection is key and lousy amo doesnt cut it. philg80 probably has a lot of experience doing his own gunsmithing ,but a little caution is in order those with less shop skills. I asked Esteban from ETAC and he said the propper way to ramp a Saiga 12 requires removing the barrel from reciever. Unless you are comfortable getting trunions back and in perfect alignment, best left to someone who has done it before. He does not recommend the dremel without removing the barrel. I dont know exactly what magic he performs but several of the local 3 gunners have had him do that mod and I have not seen any feed problems with them. philg80, do you have a simple way to ramp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philg80 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) The last thing to do is to make a feed ramp with a dremel or die grinder on the bottom and sides of the Saiga chamber to help with feeding and don't be cheap on shells. Use either Winchester AA or Remington STS shells. They tend not to deform in the magazines and while feeding into the chamber. Really good to get advice from a guy with lots of experience, thanks philg80 This is real interesting problem that is for real and can ruin your day. This problem has come up before. I agree amo selection is key and lousy amo doesnt cut it. philg80 probably has a lot of experience doing his own gunsmithing ,but a little caution is in order those with less shop skills. I asked Esteban from ETAC and he said the propper way to ramp a Saiga 12 requires removing the barrel from reciever. Unless you are comfortable getting trunions back and in perfect alignment, best left to someone who has done it before. He does not recommend the dremel without removing the barrel. I dont know exactly what magic he performs but several of the local 3 gunners have had him do that mod and I have not seen any feed problems with them. philg80, do you have a simple way to ramp? There is no "simple" way, but patience is the key. The barrel does NOT have to be removed to get a correct feed ramp on a Saiga. Would it be better, probably, but the average person does not have the ability to remove the barrel and do the work. I personally used a die grinder with 3" long sanding spindles, some coarse and some fine, and just had the patience to go slow. The best reason to do it this way is so that you can "blend" the trunnion and barrel ramp together. Remove all the internals from your gun and go up through the magwell while your gun is in a vice and you can reach the bottom and both sides of your saiga chamber. The top of the barrel has a hood so there is nothing to ramp there. The reason to ramp the chamber is because as the shotgun shell enters the chamber it has the ability to kick upward and jam the gun when it comes in contact with the face of a non ramped chamber. Go slow and anyone with steady hands can really go along way in helping the reliability of their Saiga 12. Edited June 11, 2009 by philg80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 You can see the Open Saiga that Jack Travers built for me here. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86609 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Somebody buy the 1100 CM I'm selling! I want to build one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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