j1b Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Here's how any common person would see this issue. Are cleats utilized as a competitive advantage? To an extent yes. But I assure you anyone who wears cleats in a match isn't doing it to run faster. Anyone who believes cleats actually make you run faster shouldn't be handling a loaded firearm. Competitors use cleats to decrease the likelyhood of slipping. That, taken in that context, should allow cleats to be used in IDPA. Any match director that gave a penalty for using them is therefore one of the rebels that in truth is causing so much trouble for IDPA in the first place. Staying in the spirit of the sport is one thing. Being an over opinionated power monger is another. Common sense is necessary in IDPA and if utilized in this particular cirmcumstance then the thread can go away because penalizing a competitor for utilizing cleats is like picking fleas off an Elephant's ass. Could it be justified? Probably. Would you end up being more of a pain in the ass than the flea ever was - probably. Penalize for cleats? Next we'll be penalizing for wearing a freaking jock strap (they'd be lighter than normal briefs ya know!) JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Please no jockstraps. Splitting pants and all that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Ive started keeping what little hair I have left really short. I really think my speed has picked up a bit from less "wind drag"! Pretty soon I will just shave it and pick up that last couple seconds shooting the classifier! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Rhino, When BW changed rules in the TJ in 2000, he made it VERY clear thats what he was doing. (It was stated) I didnt see that with Kens article. I also remember seeing a thing from Ken on Glock triggers, I havent seen that come to pass. The TJ is NOT the rule book, I got that from BW, I didnt make it up! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 larry well there's another problem then the TJ isn't the rule book but the idpa published it. ok so Ken writes and article saying one thing, and now these MD's are telling us that Ken wasn't right. Well it's not in the rule book, but it has been in the TJ. Sounds like major confusion at HQ's to me.... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 You didnt hear me say anything about people being HAPPY with it! FWIW the guy that wrote the STUPID article about Cover was WRONG. I still dont know how it got published. THAT is from a VERY reliable source! I wish they would put a section in there (TJ) for rules clarifications or at the end of articles they would clarify IDPA HQ postitons on anything thats like the cleats and cover and Glock Triggers cover etc. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Larry Have you sent a runner to the Mount, with your requests, so they could be presented to BW ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Rhino,When BW changed rules in the TJ in 2000, he made it VERY clear thats what he was doing. (It was stated) I didnt see that with Kens article. I also remember seeing a thing from Ken on Glock triggers, I havent seen that come to pass. The TJ is NOT the rule book, I got that from BW, I didnt make it up! Larry P But he wasn't changing any rules . . . he was clarifying that such a rule didn't exist. Did you call BW yet to ask about cleats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 LarryHave you sent a runner to the Mount, with your requests, so they could be presented to BW ? YUP! In a round about way though! I wanted to talk to BW at the Nats about it but every time I was around him and no one else was there was always something more important going on, like shooting or SO meetings or or or! LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Rhino,When BW changed rules in the TJ in 2000, he made it VERY clear thats what he was doing. (It was stated) I didnt see that with Kens article. I also remember seeing a thing from Ken on Glock triggers, I havent seen that come to pass. The TJ is NOT the rule book, I got that from BW, I didnt make it up! Larry P But he wasn't changing any rules . . . he was clarifying that such a rule didn't exist. Did you call BW yet to ask about cleats? Rhino, Nope not gonna! I dont care one way or another! I doubt my ankles would handle the stress anymore! The thing I am adamant about is that everyone understands that whats said in the TJ means NOTHING unless its stated that "this is the new way, signed BW" Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted October 6, 2003 Author Share Posted October 6, 2003 THE CONDUCT OF DEFENSIVE PISTOL COMPETITION Purpose: Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real world" self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in Defensive Pistol events are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. No "competition only" equipment is permitted in Defensive Pistol matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship. Equipment: All equipment used in Defensive Pistol matches must meet the following simple guidelines: equipment must be practical for self-defense use, concealable, suitable for all-day continuous wear, and must be worn in a manner that would be appropriate for all-day continuous wear. The match director will be REQUIRED to disallow any equipment that does not meet these simple criteria. If you wouldn't carry it to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in Defensive Pistol competition. If you are caught using equipment that is not in the guidelines set forth, not in the spirit of Defensive Pistol “PURPOSE”, and the Match Director is convinced you did so to gain competitive advantage, you will be disqualified from the entire match. now tell me again how cleats are legal? I guess my reloads even though they make power factor are not in the spirit of the Game. (I dont carry my reloads to defend myself I carry Federal Hydra Shocks. How many of you shoot your carry Ammo?) bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjobart Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Wouldn't that be a "Failure to Look Right" for wearing shorts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Remember the steadfast IDPA rule. If Bill Wilson, Ed Brown or Les Baer don't sell it, it's probably not legal. Oops. Failure to advertise right penalty. Cleats are not legal as they are competition equipment. You wouldn't really be wearing them on the street now would you? However, for some reason, you cannot do a reload to retention into cargo pants pockets, go figure. These are not "tactically correct" but the obviously bogus photographers vest is? Not to bash IDPA, although I will for a minute, they can go a bit too far. The spirit of the game is one thing, but I know that at one of the IDPA Nationals, there were more than a couple of people, who had sewn aluminum aircraft cable into their pants pockets to have it stay open and thus do faster reload with retention. Just my two Lincolns. For the record, I do enjoy IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Everytime this thread continues it blows my mind. IDPA is struggling today because of over interpretation. I can tell you this. I don't wear cleats at matches. If I did - and I got a FTDR because of it - I would cancel my membership and would not return. Now - at what point in time does IPDA decide that maybe a little flexibilty is worth not losing business. I stick with my first post - making cleats illegal is BS. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Remember the steadfast IDPA rule. If Bill Wilson, Ed Brown or Les Baer don't sell it, it's probably not legal. Oops. Failure to advertise right penalty. Oh, please. I've heard this sort of snotty - and obviously erroneous - comment made toward Bill Wilson too many times. In three of the four IDPA divisions he and other likeminded folks created (ESP, SSP, SSR), none of the guns made by Wilson are legal. Do Brown and Baer make anything other than 1911 .45s? I'm asking - I haven't checked their catalogs lately. In two of the divisions (SSP and SSR), none of the after-market 1911 parts Wilson/Brown/Baer sell are legal or even possible to add to guns. However, for some reason, you cannot do a reload to retention into cargo pants pockets, go figure. These are not "tactically correct" but the obviously bogus photographers vest is? Bogus how? I've worn these things for years. Okay, at the moment I'm wearing a baggy leather jacket as my primary concealment garment, but in warmer months I'm sure I'll be wearing a photographer's vest again. The spirit of the game is one thing, but I know that at one of the IDPA Nationals, there were more than a couple of people, who had sewn aluminum aircraft cable into their pants pockets to have it stay open and thus do faster reload with retention. One could argue that. Really, is it any more cheating that the old trick, that so many "truly knowledgable" gunmen used in years past, of sewing fish sinkers into the hems of shirts and suit jackets they wore on a daily basis so the cloth could be flung out of the way faster on the draw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Cleats are not legal as they are competition equipment. Prove it. A letter from Bill Wilson or an explicit declaration in a current rule book would suffice, as would something written in the Tactical Journal by a board member. Oh, wait! The last item already happened. Cleats are "legal." Get over it. You may go to matches where the MD or and SO or someone chooses to assert otherwise, but they're making up the rules to fit what they think the rules should be. And that, well, that's pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 O.K. I think this has run its course. If anyone disagrees strongly drop me a PM. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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