bkeeler Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 I did not see anything in the LGB unless i missed it some where but are football spikes legal in IDPA? thanks bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Currently, you may wear cleats. Some local clubs may give you grief over it and tell you that you can't, but it's not against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 you'll get a "gamer" moniker tied to you for the rest of your life....hehehe! It's not tac-tickle enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 why would you want to? idpa is mostly stand and shoot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Not legal. No kind of spikes or cleats. Doesn't matter if it is the LGB or not, they will penalize you for wearing them. Maybe even the dreaded FTDR Rhino, you are treading on thin ice here. It is like knee pads worn outside the pants, or declaring 7/8 round mags in CDP, etc. There are many things not covered by the "Rules" which will invoke the wrath of the MD or the AC if they see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassy knoll Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 when i read the topic i thought you were talking about spiking the football after the touchdown, maybe do a little dance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 why would you want to? idpa is mostly stand and shoot.... Not where I shoot! I sure wish it was . . . In fact, they refuse to run any courses of fire where you are not moving while shooting and/or rushing from one point of cover to another. They're a lot like some IPSC field courses, but shot with more restrictive, IDPA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Not legal. No kind of spikes or cleats. Doesn't matter if it is the LGB or not, they will penalize you for wearing them. Maybe even the dreaded FTDRRhino, you are treading on thin ice here. It is like knee pads worn outside the pants, or declaring 7/8 round mags in CDP, etc. There are many things not covered by the "Rules" which will invoke the wrath of the MD or the AC if they see it. Have you not read the last issue of the Tactical Journal? There's an article in there (I think Hackathorn wrote it) that makes it absolutely clear that cleats are not against the rules. And even if that wasn't the case, you can't claim something isn't "Legal" without some basis in the written rules. You're talking about the Match Director's and SO's discretion, not whether or not something is "Legal." But that's moot since the contrary to your assertion was published in the official journal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Have you not read the last issue of the Tactical Journal? There's an article in there (I think Hackathorn wrote it) that makes it absolutely clear that cleats are not against the rules.And even if that wasn't the case, you can't claim something isn't "Legal" without some basis in the written rules. You're talking about the Match Director's and SO's discretion, not whether or not something is "Legal." But that's moot since the contrary to your assertion was published in the official journal. Two Problems, 1 the TJ is NOT official guidelines unless specifically noted by Bill Wilson. 2 Hack is no longer on the BoD so what he says is not law, an may or may not conform to what BW thinks! LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I think Bill Wilson deserves a FTDR for wearing shorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 The IDPA rule book is written with a clear list of illegal equipment. Thus, if it is not in the rule book as prohibited, then it is legal. Hackathorn was a member of the BOD at the time the article was published so the article carries with it the authority of the BOD of IDPA. Also since Bill Wilson signs off on the contents of the TJ he has in fact given his stamp of agreement to the statement and/or article. Cleats are legal for use in IDPA. If a MD tells you different and/or penalizes you for wearing them during a sanctioned match you should immeadiately contact IDPA headquarters and inform them of the problem. You should also request that the clubs IDPA sanctioning be pulled since by accepting IDPA membership and sanctioning they are required to run their matches by IDPA rules. Not by their own personal belief of what they think IDPA rules should be. One of the major problems IDPA is currently facing is MD's and SO's deciding that IDPA is not "Tactical" enough and creating and enforcing rules of their own design to make it "better". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 THE CONDUCT OF DEFENSIVE PISTOL COMPETITION Purpose: Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real world" self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in Defensive Pistol events are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. No "competition only" equipment is permitted in Defensive Pistol matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship. Equipment: All equipment used in Defensive Pistol matches must meet the following simple guidelines: equipment must be practical for self-defense use, concealable, suitable for all-day continuous wear, and must be worn in a manner that would be appropriate for all-day continuous wear. The match director will be REQUIRED to disallow any equipment that does not meet these simple criteria. If you wouldn't carry it to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in Defensive Pistol competition. If you are caught using equipment that is not in the guidelines set forth, not in the spirit of Defensive Pistol “PURPOSE”, and the Match Director is convinced you did so to gain competitive advantage, you will be disqualified from the entire match. now tell me again how cleats are legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Bob H. is absolutely correct (although he hardly needs my whiney confirmation). "Equipment" in the passages quoted from the rule book above clearly refers to guns, holsters, mags, and mag carriers, etc. Nothing else is mentioned in those sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Equipment refers to everything from head to foot. Note that wear and worn are mentioned - it is not limited to only the waistline as some would desire. C'mon ,what part of "No Compettion Only " don't you understand? this is one instance where I agree with tightloop on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Bob I'm with you and Rhino here, I think it is silly not to be able to wear what you want. Mark I'm just telling Bob & Rhino what my experiences have been. I don't have an axe to grind either way.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Equipment refers to everything from head to foot.Note that wear and worn are mentioned - it is not limited to only the waistline as some would desire. How so? Do you find a definition of "equipment" in the rule book? If not, you have to make some inferences and clearly the equipment sections do not address clothing. In any case, it's settled by the article in the Tactical Journal. You can't create rules because you think it ought to be that way. Some clubs do it, but that doesn't make them official rules. Bob is right and there's no way around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasa Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Mark Perez, My my, that's a pretty interesting interpretation of the definition of "equipment", everything ffrom head to foot. Ergo, per the rule all equipment must be "concealable". So the next time you are shooting a stage in which you are wearing shoes that you are not able to conceal then the MD or SO should disqualify you immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 You guys are free to wear whatever you wish - it is clearly stated in my initial post that the MD reserves the discretion of DQ'ing the offender. I've heard all the counter argumments before: they are safety equipment,etc. If the tracton on a range was so slick to require cleats - then that is a different safety issue of it's own. If you are comfortable with cleats, go for it - but you can't justify that they are suitable for all day continuous wear ,any more than the equipment paragraph only applies to the gun and accessories. If it did ,wouldn't it say so "only applies to guns and ..."?? By my interprettion - if I were the acting MD - cleats are competition only equipment - you don't have to like it or even agree. Jasa I do hope that the next version of rules will have cleats and other issues addressed to remove doubt from all party's. That's my story and I'm sticking to it Until that day MP ps we hashed over this at GT TAC JOURNAL THREAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 By my interprettion - if I were the acting MD - cleats are competition only equipment - you don't have to like it or even agree. Well this might not be popular with you but you can't just interpet the rule book the way that fit's you, you need to follow the rules as written. since the TJ already said that cleat's are legal then you "must" allow them at your club until there is a rule against them. sno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 <<no competition equipment may be used in IDPA. If you wouldn't wear it all day on the street, you can't use it in IDPA competition>> If we took this statement (and it is not a direct qoute) by Mr. Perez as the truth then we should also ban shooting glasses and hearing protection. They, like cleats, are not addressed in the rule book, and like cleats they are legal to wear in IDPA competition. In many areas they are as much safety equipment as glasses and hearing protection. I do most of my shooting in the desert areas of the southwest. As such I shoot mostly in loose rock and sand, and on a couple of ranges that are all grass. Shooting in those conditions footing can be very slippery. That, in my mind, makes cleats a bigger safety issue then eyes and ears. ANYTHING that helps prevent a shooter, running around with a loaded gun, from taking a fall, is a safety issue. And we can all agree at least that safety should come first. Either way, once they were published as legal in the TJ, all doubt was removed. If we are going to prohibit all competition related clothing items then in all fairness we would have to outlaw Robbins pants and just about all shooting vests, and probably all BDU pants in general. They are not common street wear, and most are designed for and marketed to, competition shooters for competition use. AND they do provide a competitive advantage. That would limit most people to wearing business suits, or at least slacks and a polo shirt. Talk about driving the cost of shooting up..... By the way, some of us do wear cleats of some sort daily. I wear some form of cleated footwear 40 hours a week. Usually either heavily cleats 8" boots or Nike Sharks. As a MD running a sanctioned match you (or anyone else) does not have the right to add rules to the rules provided by the sanctioning group. By accepting the sanctioning of IDPA you promise to run the match according to their rules, not your's. Until IDPA comes out with a new rulebook that specificially prohibits cleats, they are legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Next IDPA match, I'll bring video from the last month showing me wearing BDUs and combat boots to work. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 GUys, I dont CARE what you wear, let me know and I will change my atire as well. The TJ is like the Letters to the editor section of the paper. It means SQUAT. IF you dont believe me call HQ and ask! There was a person that wrote an artical last issue that said you should PE or FTDR a person for not using cover correctly including sticking your gun past cover. BS you cant find that anywhere in fact you will find the opposite! That EXACT issue was covered by BW in 2000 TJ saying that was NOT the position of IDPA and clubs should NOT do it. The TJ is NOT like "IPSC Front Site" TJ is OPINION and thats all. In the above example BW even stated that this would be considered a rule change for the Sport! Like I said call and ask but I promise the TJ is NOT official! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Larry . . . it wasn't an article contributed by a member. Had that been the case, you'd have a good point. It was Ken Hackathorn speaking for IDPA (and as Bob noted, he was still one of the board honchos when that article was written). Feel free to call Arkansas and ask them whether cleats are allowed or not, and ask them to send it to you in writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Just buy a pair of GSG-9. No one will complain about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 On our late model dirt car we use to soak the tires in carb cleaner, or bleach. Man they got tacky as hell. We needed new tires by the time the A main came up, but that wasn't no thing as we had a great tire sponsor....I know.....to the point!! Spray the old Nikes in carb cleaner, or soak the soles in bleach. You won't need cleats for anything other than sand, and you will stick to the ground like glue. You will need new shoes a lot sooner, and you can't smoke around em, and you can tell the MD it's bug juice, or would carb cleaner be considered competition wear? KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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