JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) The full calibration area of a popper must be available to the shooter right? Where is it in the rules... damned if I see it. Edited April 2, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 hmmm nobody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The full calibration area of a popper must be available to the shooter right? Where is it in the rules... damned if I see it. Nope. Not required, not covered in the rules. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) The full calibration area of a popper must be available to the shooter right? Where is it in the rules... damned if I see it. Nope. Not required, not covered in the rules. Troy That's what I call an oversight... you mean I can hide one behind HC and show you an inch and if you don't hit it you get dinged? On the other hand... at least I'm not losing it. I couldn't find it anywhere and i was going off one of those "he said" deals. Not anymore... I can't believe they chose to exclude it. Edited April 2, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Sounds devilish J........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The full calibration area of a popper must be available to the shooter right? Where is it in the rules... damned if I see it. Nope. Not required, not covered in the rules. Troy That's what I call an oversight... you mean I can hide one behind HC and show you an inch and if you don't hit it you get dinged? On the other hand... at least I'm not losing it. I could find it anywhere and i was going off one of those "he said" deals. No anymore... I can't believe they chose to exclude it. Not necessarily. The hard cover has to be true hardcover, or every shot that passes through is REF. And, it has to be calibrated, so whoever is calibrating it is going to hate whoever set it up that way. You can make some challenging shots by just covering a little bit of the popper. You would, of course, have to leave some of the calibration zone available to be shot at if challenged, or it would not be legal. However, the rules don't address how much has to be available, at least not that I see. We've had courses with some hardcover over the poppers at Nationals in the past. Enough to be challenging, not enough to be run out of town on a rail. YMMV. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The full calibration area of a popper must be available to the shooter right? Where is it in the rules... damned if I see it. Nope. Not required, not covered in the rules. Troy That's what I call an oversight... you mean I can hide one behind HC and show you an inch and if you don't hit it you get dinged? On the other hand... at least I'm not losing it. I could find it anywhere and i was going off one of those "he said" deals. No anymore... I can't believe they chose to exclude it. I forgot to answer your first question: Yes, you could. It's a shooting challenge, after all. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 My favorite set up that I've seen was a US popper painted red with just the top portion (none of the calibration zone) visible above hard cover (a barrel I think) set at 10 yards from the engagement position with a wall made out of the orange construction fencing set at 5 yards between the shooter and the popper. Great shooting challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 My favorite set up that I've seen was a US popper painted red with just the top portion (none of the calibration zone) visible above hard cover (a barrel I think) set at 10 yards from the engagement position with a wall made out of the orange construction fencing set at 5 yards between the shooter and the popper. Great shooting challenge. Interesting, but not legal since you can't hit the calibration for setup or one that didn't fall. You cold just reshoot until you got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anubis Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 My favorite set up that I've seen was a US popper painted red with just the top portion (none of the calibration zone) visible above hard cover (a barrel I think) set at 10 yards from the engagement position with a wall made out of the orange construction fencing set at 5 yards between the shooter and the popper. Great shooting challenge. Interesting, but not legal since you can't hit the calibration for setup or one that didn't fall. You cold just reshoot until you got it right. Could you not just 'move' the barrel for calibration purposes then put it back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 At our indoor match Tuesday night, we had a popper set up behind a no-shoot with the "A" zone removed. Calibration area was fully visable. The problem was it was 20 yards downrange in low level light Made a lot of people really slow down and focus on thier sights. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 At our indoor match Tuesday night, we had a popper set up behind a no-shoot with the "A" zone removed. Calibration area was fully visable. The problem was it was 20 yards downrange in low level light Made a lot of people really slow down and focus on thier sights. dj How many no shoots did you guys have to replace during the match? I guess it wouldn't be so bad if you had less than 20 people for the match, but it's generally not a good idea to have too much paper in front/around a popper from the splash. I just stick my No shoots behind the popper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 At our indoor match Tuesday night, we had a popper set up behind a no-shoot with the "A" zone removed. Calibration area was fully visable. The problem was it was 20 yards downrange in low level light Made a lot of people really slow down and focus on thier sights. dj Hmmm. Shot goes through the NS hits popper, knocks popper down, causes REF. I wonder how long it would take to figure out that might be a bad idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) My favorite set up that I've seen was a US popper painted red with just the top portion (none of the calibration zone) visible above hard cover (a barrel I think) set at 10 yards from the engagement position with a wall made out of the orange construction fencing set at 5 yards between the shooter and the popper. Great shooting challenge. Interesting, but not legal since you can't hit the calibration for setup or one that didn't fall. You cold just reshoot until you got it right. Could you not just 'move' the barrel for calibration purposes then put it back? 5. For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within the calibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated handgun using the calibration ammunition. The shot must be fired from the shooting loca- tion in the course of fire furthest from the popper being calibrated Calibration zones are indicated in the diagrams in Appendix B4. IN my opinion there is a huge hole in the book here where poppers are concerned. By everything that is written we know they want the calibration zone to be struck for the test. You can not strike the calibration zone, so a challenge could result in a stage being re-shot or tossed. Yes, if there is a piece above the calibration zone available the RM hits it the test is passed, but not for the initial calibration in C1. The Calibration area must be shot. It says they must shoot from the farthest point the shooter has access to the target. It doesn't say about moving a prop, "common sense" I know and I can't see and RM allowing it but... What if I leave just a piece of it and the RM is a super shot" Passed. C1 "The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibra- tion. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person." This would seem to indicate nothing around it can be "moved" as you suggest. Now, since the calibration can not strike the calibration area, in this case only above it is visible, the calibration would be deemed to have failed per: 7c. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above the calibra- tion zone, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the com- petitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire once the Popper has been recalibrated. IN my opinion, of all the rules, or lack thereof, this is the most glaring example of the book falling short. We have pages and pages on how paper can be presented and scoring methods for edge hits perfs etc etc. Now we have a scoring target which is just as valid as any other, and no rules are given to how much of the shooting are must be available. We no we have to have all the upper, or 25% of the lower available for paper... why is there not a minimum scoring area for poppers as well? The only thing that limits this, IMO, is that the RM must be able to calibrate the popper. Can props be moved to shoot the proper zone? Hey, there are no rules that say I can't leave 1/4" available at 20yds. I quess the RM better be a damn good shot. C1 "The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibra- tion. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person." But the way I read that, it's just so the popper itself isn't changed or anything which might change it's lean or calibration. Never mind that if we moved a prop to shoot it the calibration because arbitrary. Now I know people will say, you can't move a prop to shoot the proper area.. please show me the rule that prevents it, for initial or otherwise. "Common sense" where do I look that one up? Even if we use "common sense" which should be avoided at all costs. lol (Funny, but we know some of us have none and I can find no rules which might define it. ) we would have to leave a portion of the calibration area open (By the earlier example here, we no it doesn't always happen, but assume it did) I choose to leave 1" open at 25yds. We have a bullseye shooting RM who steps up and tags the popper and knocks it down. The course is legal? Sure is the way I see it. There is to much left to chance here and the rules need to be address and added too. There are rules about COFs that could limit my example, but it is meant to show that target presentation needs to be addressed and the sooner the better. In conclusion: This is an oversight and really needs to be addressed. Our rules are very specific for target presentation and scoring, but here, the rules are lacking. If you look at the calibration and size measurements we have for poppers and dimensions for steel, you know what the "intent" is here, but I don't feel "intent" is enough. We defined the minimum size of the targets in the appendix, but then we have no rule to enforce the size when it's out among friends on a COF?? There would seem to be a conflict there between what was intended and what can happen in reality. There is no point is spelling out all these dimensions if I can use, what amounts, to a 1"x3" plate/popper hidden behind a steel barrier at 50yds. JT Edited April 2, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 At our indoor match Tuesday night, we had a popper set up behind a no-shoot with the "A" zone removed. Calibration area was fully visable. The problem was it was 20 yards downrange in low level light Made a lot of people really slow down and focus on thier sights. dj Hmmm. Shot goes through the NS hits popper, knocks popper down, causes REF. I wonder how long it would take to figure out that might be a bad idea? Almost reminds you of an owl, sitting on the branch, licking the lollypop. How many licks does it take...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) My position would be that if it cannot be calibrated initially, by the book, then it can't be used as presented. If I am doing the calibration, I would be the RM, and I would not allow a popper to be used that has not been subject to initial calibration. So, if I can calibrate it initially, it would be a valid target/challenge. I don't see a rule issue here. It either can be calibrated, and therefore legal, or it cannot, and therefore illegal. Edited April 2, 2009 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) 5. For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within thecalibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated handgun using the calibration ammunition. The shot must be fired from the shooting loca- tion in the course of fire furthest from the popper being calibrated Calibration zones are indicated in the diagrams in Appendix B4. I think we can arrive at an answer by focusing on the highlighted text. Calibration shot must be taken from a location in the course of fire. That implies that the course of fire is set up and complete. So you can not move a barrel or a steel plate away and put it back as you would be calibrating the popper for a different course of fire than what the competitors will be shooting. Since you are required to hit the calibration zone to calibrate the popper, at least some portion of the calibration zone must be visible from some location within the course of fire. Edited April 2, 2009 by sslav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 OK, after giving this more thought, I can see a situation where this could be a problem. One of those darned if you do and darned if you don't situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) My position would be that if it cannot be calibrated initially, by the book, then it can't be used as presented. If I am doing the calibration, I would be the RM, and I would not allow a popper to be used that has not been subject to initial calibration.So, if I can calibrate it initially, it would be a valid target/challenge. I don't see a rule issue here. It either can be calibrated, and therefore legal, or it cannot, and therefore illegal. I would agree that some portion of the calibration zone must be visible to do the initial. I was a bit facetious in my statement trying to get a point across. Okay, lets say we are good with "some portion" of the calibrating zone available... why have it spelled out as to size of both poppers and steel if I can just leave an inch available? Not only that, but you are encouraging frags and parts of rounds going in odd directions and possibly leaving the range, from a bunch of edge hits because you might only have an edge and an inch to shoot at. This is could be a safety concern as well. I know most of the RM out there aren't going to allow some of what we are talking about here, but there isn't an experienced RM at a lot of local stuff. When you go to that level you need to have a clear set of what is allowed and what is not. I would like to see a minimum calibration percentage presented for poppers and a minimum percent of a steel target available. Say you have a plate six inched across... You have to have at least 25% of the plate available to shoot, or 1.5 inches. Anything less is not reasonable to me. Not to mention taking the extra time during a COF and off putting a lot of people. The deal is there is noway to regulate it now except the, "because I said so" argument. You could go with chapter 1 and talk about "realistic scenarios, but I really have no idea what that is... to expect a guy to stand in the open is not really "realistic" either. Wouldn't it be a simple thing to say 25-35%, pick a percent I'd go with 25% in keeping with paper, must be available on the calibration zone of any popper and use the same percentage available on steel plates. It's quantifiable and easy to do. JT Edited April 2, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 5. For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within thecalibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated handgun using the calibration ammunition. The shot must be fired from the shooting loca- tion in the course of fire furthest from the popper being calibrated Calibration zones are indicated in the diagrams in Appendix B4. I think we can arrive at an answer by focusing on the highlighted text. Calibration shot must be taken from a location in the course of fire. That implies that the course of fire is set up and complete. So you can not move a barrel or a steel plate away and put it back as you would be calibrating the popper for a different course of fire than what the competitors will be shooting. Since you are required to hit the calibration zone to calibrate the popper, at least some portion of the calibration zone must be visible from some location within the course of fire. I don't disagree with what you are saying, in fact, I do agree with you, but how much is "a portion" 1%-5-30% at what point is it "unrealistic" per chapter 1? Do you agree there is room for improvement here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) My position would be that if it cannot be calibrated initially, by the book, then it can't be used as presented. If I am doing the calibration, I would be the RM, and I would not allow a popper to be used that has not been subject to initial calibration.So, if I can calibrate it initially, it would be a valid target/challenge. I don't see a rule issue here. It either can be calibrated, and therefore legal, or it cannot, and therefore illegal. I agree. At least a portion of the calibration area, basically some part of the circle, must be available to be shot. How much is a question of how twisted the course designer is. JT, in one of your examples above, the high shot, (above the circle), would result in a reshoot, not a valid calibration, unless I'm not following your logic correctly. Yes, if there is a piece above the calibration zone available the RM hits it the test is passed, but not for the initial calibration in C1. I have to say that I haven't seen too many examples of courses that hid a lot of the steel, so I might not be "getting" it here. I can say that I would not allow one with a tiny portion of popper available, just because of the administrative issues it would cause. Just like putting no-shoots in front (or behind, for that matter) of the steel. I can post a couple of pics from past Nationals that illustrate some hard cover use on poppers, if I can find them and do it right. I really don't see the need for a rule here; seems to me that the people shooting the course with a hard steel shot might have something to say about it right then and there. But, whadda I know? Troy Troy Edited April 2, 2009 by mactiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) My position would be that if it cannot be calibrated initially, by the book, then it can't be used as presented. If I am doing the calibration, I would be the RM, and I would not allow a popper to be used that has not been subject to initial calibration.So, if I can calibrate it initially, it would be a valid target/challenge. I don't see a rule issue here. It either can be calibrated, and therefore legal, or it cannot, and therefore illegal. I agree. At least a portion of the calibration area, basically some part of the circle, must be available to be shot. How much is a question of how twisted the course designer is. JT, in one of your examples above, the high shot, (above the circle), would result in a reshoot, not a valid calibration, unless I'm not following your logic correctly. Agreed Yes, if there is a piece above the calibration zone available the RM hits it the test is passed, but not for the initial calibration in C1. I have to say that I haven't seen too many examples of courses that hid a lot of the steel, so I might not be "getting" it here. I can say that I would not allow one with a tiny portion of popper available, just because of the administrative issues it would cause. Just like putting no-shoots in front (or behind, for that matter) of the steel. I can post a couple of pics from past Nationals that illustrate some hard cover use on poppers, if I can find them and do it right. I really don't see the need for a rule here; seems to me that the people shooting the course with a hard steel shot might have something to say about it right then and there. But, whadda I know? Troy Troy I guess my main point is this Troy... If we have to have a minimum part of an A zone available for a paper target, then we should have a minimum percentage available for both poppers and steel. It doesn't seem right to have dimensions for this popper or that, this piece of steel or that, when a course designer can throw away those measurements simply by tossing in some hard cover. At the local level you see a lot of stuff from newer designers that involves steel. I've done some of this myself and I think it's valid to allow portions of steel to be blocked off, but there needs to be a limit on how much. Not just for the RM at majors, but for the rest of us out there putting on local matches and trying to be consistent across the board. Most clubs don't have an RM and therefore they need this stuff in writing or it becomes a big hairball. Frankly, I can't believe this hasn't been addressed before now, or may be I'm just not "getting it" myself? Am I the only one who sees and inconstancy in having a percentage of the highest scoring area available on one type of target and not another? I'm in no way pissed here... I just think we missed this one and because "that's the way it's been done" people aren't thinking about the logic of it. Edited April 2, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I don't disagree with what you are saying, in fact, I do agree with you, but how much is "a portion" 1%-5-30% at what point is it "unrealistic" per chapter 1?Do you agree there is room for improvement here? I am not sure the exact percentage needs to be specified. Steel is not like paper. All of it is A zone and it provides a clear visual feedback to the shooter - it either falls or it does not. So I would leave it to the discretion of MD/RM as to what they consider reasonable and safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 I don't disagree with what you are saying, in fact, I do agree with you, but how much is "a portion" 1%-5-30% at what point is it "unrealistic" per chapter 1?Do you agree there is room for improvement here? I am not sure the exact percentage needs to be specified. Steel is not like paper. All of it is A zone and it provides a clear visual feedback to the shooter - it either falls or it does not. So I would leave it to the discretion of MD/RM as to what they consider reasonable and safe. So I would leave it to the discretion of MD/RM as to what they consider reasonable and safe. And there in lies the problem... what one RM considers to be acceptable might not be for another. Also, we don't have true RMs at a lot of matches. What we have now is arbitrary. You're right in that it's all A if it falls, but that's only if it falls. For the sake of discussion I would say the calibration zone is the A on a popper. If you can make that leap with me then why not specify a percentage and take the inconsistency out of the equation. The problem lies from one person to another... their "feeling" as to what is acceptable and not. This is not black and white, but a shade of gray. That's about all I have on the subject... Best, JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) And there in lies the problem... what one RM considers to be acceptable might not be for another. Also, we don't have true RMs at a lot of matches. What we have now is arbitrary. But whatever percentage of a popper is presented, it is an equal challenge for all the shooters. You're right in that it's all A if it falls, but that's only if it falls. If it is going to fall from a hit to the calibration ring, it will fall from a hit above the calibration ring as well. For the sake of discussion I would say the calibration zone is the A on a popper. Why? If a mini popper with 50% of calibration zone visible is a valid presentation then why wouldn't be a full size popper with only an inch or two of the calibration ring exposed? Both presentations have a roughly equivalent area of steel visible. Both will fall if hit in the exposed area. Edited April 2, 2009 by sslav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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