Breaking Into The Sweet 16

[Flexmoney]

TDean posted in another thread:

I need to start turning 15sec stages into 13sec stages (with no loss of accuracy) to get into the top 8.

You know, come to think of it, Brain was with the SuperSquad on every stage. We need to start a new thread asking him about the differences in the way the top guys shot those specific stages. Maybe they zigged when I zagged?

I think USPSA should have a raffle for guys who want to shoot on the SuperSquad. That's gott'a elevate your game!

I'll throw this out there...

At the Factory Gun Nationals, we had some down time. I got to watch the Super-Squads a few times. One of the things that I noticed was that the top-tier GM's were a step ahead. All the time.

I remember watching one (second-tier) GM Production shooter on a stage...one with a mailbox. As he finished an array in a doorway...it seemed like it just plain took him longer to get to steppin'...and get the reload completed. Then I watch David S. shoot the same stage. As soon as David called his last shot of that array...the reload was done and had already gained a step of movement (because he started moving sooner).

In fact, I got to see David S. shoot a few stages. Somehow, he was smooth and crisp every time I saw him shoot. He never seemed in a hurry...but, he was always moving well. Every time I saw him..he was just "on". The only other shooting that I saw that impressed me more was where I got to see Blake M. tear down Stage 11 (FNG).

[ErikW]

TDean wrote in the 2003 Limited Nationals thread...

It seems that if I shoot a good clean match without gun trouble I can make top 16. The problem is that that's only about 85-90% of the #1 guy. How the HELL DO I GET TO THE NEXT LEVEL?

I need to start turning 15sec stages into 13sec stages (with no loss of accuracy) to get into the top 8.

First of all, you tell us. You won a freakin' stage! Did you just hang it out, damn the torpedoes, and manage to hit everything by sheer luck? Did you calmly breeze through the stage smooth as butter?

I was surprised at how close my times were on some of those stages, like #8 with the ports and platforms. There was no way for the big dogs to shoot on the move coming in and going out. You just ran to a port, stepped on a platform, and shot. You couldn't even see them going in. So even a second-rate Master like me had a competitive time if you didn't wait on swinger or anything.

But if you get a stage where the targets are more visible and engageable over a wider area, those guys will tear you up with those 10-20% better times. I think it's because of the movement.

Check out the A shooters among the GMs on Open stage 7. Hardly any movement, just some re-indexing and re-positioning of the feet. You can almost see all the targets from one spot. No movement for the big dogs to exploit. I swear I shot that stage at 80% of my ability and it was good for 92% of some guy they call the Buzz Saw. I yanked a D doing about a .13 split on the last target. The big dogs don't put holes in the D zone. (I wasn't as competitive in the Limited stage because I took 2 or 3 extra shots.)

When I was trying to shoot on the move I pulled shots into no-shoots or off-target. The big dogs are hitting those half-A-zones on the move.

[Flexmoney]

[admin note] Erik and I both quoted TDean's question to start threads. I merged the one I started into Erik.

[Ron Ankeny]

I don't know about IPSC because I haven't made the opportunity to hang with the big dawgs. I can tell you what makes the top shooters "better" in some of the other shooting disciplines though. As a general rule the better shooters are well....just better shooters. No duh, huh. There is no secret to their success. They have a better mental game, they are in control, they have experience, they have a winner's aura about them (and I don't mean arrogance), and they just shoot better. No need to look to an external source for the answer because it is always right in front of you to see (I stole that). Anyway, I know that's how it goes when there isn't any movement involved. Maybe IPSC is different?

[SmittyFL]

Erik, I think you are right on Re: movement

I shot with the SS at the FL Open. Most of the match was wide open with shooting on the move available or there were many sweet spots you could go to and shoot a lot of targets.

If the targets are close I'm fine, but once they get farther out I don't have the confidence to shoot on the move. I can't seem to call my shots very well. So I would haul ass to the sweet spot and hose them down. Then the big boys would come behind me but by the time they got to the sweet spot they only had one target left to shoot because they shot them all on the way and got there almost as quick as I did.

I'm convinced that is the difference. To get to the "next" level you have to be able to shoot A's on 20-25 yd targets while on the move. That is the 10-20% difference in stage points.

[Steve Anderson]

Yes.

When you can call A's on the move whenever the targets allow it you are "there."

I'm going there, not there yet.

SA

[Ron Ankeny]

I am absolutely convinced that movement is extremely important, (that's why I suck) but I think there are other elements that are vital to being the best. Tell me, is TGO the very fastest shooter moving from area to area, box to box? Is TGO the very best at shooting on the move? If he isn't the fastest at movement then is he the most economical? I really don't know. If not, then how has he managed to dominate the sport through the years?

I am not familiar with the IPSC shooting community beyond what I see on video tapes and what I read on this forum so the match results don't tell me much as far as the characteristics of the shooters who did well. So tell me, did any of you younger, athletic, quick master class shooters lose to any overweight 45-55 year old GM shooters? If you lost to old fat guys who move slower, then you might want to consider the possibility that speed isn't your only area that needs improvement.

[TDean]

Awesome topic!!

Is it mostly time saved by being efficient (movement), or is it time saved by aquiring and accurately shooting targets. Of course movement is very important, but I think ANYONE can learn that. It's like dancing (which I don't do).

I'm leaning more towards shooting skill as the time saver.

Fo example, when I look at the "eye chart" stage, I see lots of time saved even though there's ZERO movement. If we take those accuracy/transition skills and apply them to a field course.....

I'm going to be busy most of the day (work), but this topic will definately be in my head!!

Look at stage 16, Robbie was a second quicker than I was. He's got 10 years on me and I've never had a bad knee. I don't think he saved time transversing the tunnel, he just puts A's on targets quicker than I do.

...and how the hell where most of the SS 2 seconds faster on stage 11 ? Did they reload?

It was a 20rd COF.

This is what I love about Nationals! We can learn from the best!

As for me winning stage 14, I really don't remember anything other than tripple-tapping the last target (3-A's) and thinking "why the hell did I do that". Everything seemed perfectly normal on that stage, nothing pushed. I did shoot it differently than most of the squad. I hit the popper, then the statics, then back to the swinger. I timed it that way watching the others shoot. I'm suprised that Taran and Robbie didn't shoot it in 8 seconds

[B.J. Norris]

Another thing that you have to look at is accuracy. You have to shoot A's (double when shooting minor) quickly. Depending on the stage size, no more than 2 or 3 C's per stage.

[TDean]

Thread drift:

Flex, you mentioned David Sevigny. What a genuinely nice guy. He found me in the crowded hallway after the awards ceremony to congratulate me on the stage win. He finally had to yell at me so I would turn around in the hallway. I heard someone saying my name and looked back to see him looking my direction, but I just assumed that he was talking to another "Tom" and I kept on walking. Very cool!

[SmittyFL]

Maybe I should have started my previous post with "For Me"

Of course there are many aspects to mastering this game, that's what makes it so great. But I think most high A or M class shooters have the basic's or fundamentals down pretty good. Draw's, splits, transitions, reloads can only be so fast. I know .10ths matter, however I think the biggest gap between a low master and GM's/Pro's is in shooting on the move. At least for me, that is the difference.

Many of the normal shooters I watch that think they are proficient at shooting on the move, move so slow to get their hits they might as well be standing still.

I shot with Eric G. at the FL Open and was flat out amazed at how quick he moved while hitting A's. I swear he was almost sprinting. That was a HUGE eye opener for me. I wouldn't even have thought it was possible to accurately engage targets as fast as he was moving. And hitting A's no less.

I think that is the difference. That is my main goal for next years season, to become much more proficient at shooting on the move.

[Flexmoney]

BJ and Ron bring up accuracy. Now, I didn't do a big study of the scores (like I sometimes do), but the quick mental picture I had on the Limited Nationals was that Robbie tweaked his accuarcy on day three. As I recall, TJ did the same thing to win the 2002 Production title last year.

It seems to me that TDean is asking about speed. There is no way to know if TDean's theory on transitions holds water unless we know (by looking at the timer) what kind of transitions he is getting. Tom...is your shooting more bang..bang............bang..bang, or bang....bang....bang....bang?

Ron asked if TGO was faster or just more economical. From the little I have seen of TGO, David Sevigny, Chuck Bradley, etc...., they just seem to not waste any motion...and there is little lag time from one motion to the next. Others (GM's and Masters) aren't as economical.

Then there is Eric G. I have only seen him on his video. He doesn't look to me like he is super-smooth, or smokin'. But, he never stops moving...and he gets great hits. I think I remember Phil Strader saying the Eric G. pointed them to death at the Florida Open.

Then there is Blake M. and Matt Trout. When these guys are on...wow. They shoot the gun like it is on automatic, and they are just behind it steering. Hardly ever setting up in any solid postion. They remind me of a kid going at it in a full-auto, paint gun war. Charging thru the other teams stronghold with reckless abandon...except, they aren't reckless (though they might be on the edge. )

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

When I first viewed the the bonus shooting portion of Matt Burkett's tape I was just amazed at how those guys shoot. The difference between a fledgling Master and a great Grand Master is like night and day. Then Blake Miguez shot. All I can say is holy shit. Ooops, can't say that on a family forum.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think a lot of people forget about transistions. I was fortunate enough to get to shoot a practice session with a top GM and his transitions were amazing, his splits were slower than what I shoot, but the transitions were amazingly fast. He had me by .1-1.2 on almost all my transitions and we were shooting a zone only at 7 yards with limited guns. He was just as fast to the head shots as to the body. If you can gain .1 on every transition over 24 rounds that is 2+ seconds.

Shooting on the move we did about the same except when we went to A zone only, then he got the .1 per transition back and smoked me in the transistions. He said it is all in trigger prep, especially shooting on the move, if you are already on target and have to prep your trigger, you are wasting time. I'm sure some of the better M's already do this, but I didn't realize how much faster my shooting was once I focused on trigger prep. On the eyechart standards in practice I cut 4.5 seconds off my previous fast time and was only down 3.

I know where I am going to go looking for that extra 15%

[diehli]

Mike Voigt offers three classes: "IPSC Shooting Skills," "IPSC Course Management," and "The GM Difference."

"The GM Difference" is described like so:

"This course is only open to 'very high A' or 'M' class shooters looking to move up to GM level of shooting. These classes are with fewer students and all must be capable of shooting high scores in matches now. This will deal with mental aspects, lots of detailed personal analysis, tips and tricks to have them perform at their maximum potential every time."

I'd have to say that it's a combination of three things that makes the best the best: ability to perform consistently (mental thing), dedication to work through difficulties, and natural skill.

[TDean]

All very interesting.......

MORE..MORE...MORE!!

[benos]

he just puts A's on targets quicker than I do.

That pretty much sums it up. But some just accomplish that differently than others. I can't remember the stage number... It was down toward the end, a long field course where after you shot about 4 targets with some partials through a doorway, you moved to the right and shot a paper, 3 poppers, and an a swinger that was activated by the closest popper. On that stage, almost everyone in the SS "approached" it differently, but yet the top finishers all shot differently. Tarran virtually charged through the thing like a madman, charging every fault line and shoot quickly on all targets. And he only shot ONE target from the second to the last position; he charged all the way in the last position and shot 5 targets, the last one from an incredible lean around the wall. Robbie, on the other hand, just kinda walked through the thing; he only moved up a step or two before he started shooting the first array. And then Phil looked like he was milking his way through it, as Tarran says - shooting gay points. But his time was only several tenths off Robbies and he shot excellent points. I think he finished very well on the stage, but I wouldn't have guessed it by watching him shoot. And I've studied quite a few shooters over the years. They were all impressive, but each in his own way. But regardless of "the way," all are efficient - AT ALL TIMES.

To me, if there is a lesson, it is - do not search for a fixed answer or rule.

If YOUR plan does not include thoroughness and effeciency, and is not executed with a sense of confident, decisive knowing, you should re-evaluate your plan. Quick, efficient movements are prefaced by seeing and knowing.

I did shoot it differently than most of the squad. I hit the popper, then the statics, then back to the swinger. I timed it that way watching the others shoot. I'm suprised that Taran and Robbie didn't shoot it in 8 seconds

I know Robbie shot it that way, because he was up second or third and I had watched it a time or two, hesitated to speak to him about it because I saw he was in "prep mode," but then decided to ask him if he'd thought of that order and he said that was how he was going to shoot it. I distinctly remember watching Robbie shoot it though, and remembering he wasn't very decisive. Maybe a little to much "unknown," or maybe everyone was a tad tight trying to not give up anything.

be

[benos]

And Tom, congratulations on that stage win! That's no easy thing to win a stage at the nationals. With that crowd, everything had to have went spot on.

be

[TDean]

Thanks Brian. It's too bad that band was sooo loud, I wanted to talk to you more.

I couldn't hear Shooter Grrl sitting next to me!

"gay-points" That's funny.

(queer eye for the strader guy?)

[Detlef]

Tom,

first off, congrats to finishing that well!!! I dunno about top 8, but (true to this thread) if you wanted to finish top 16, all you needed to do is not trash those two stages that you trashed miserably. Shooting very conservatively, you could have easily picked up 50 pts or so this way, and that woudl have put you at 14th place, goal accomplished.... Top 16, IMHO, is where the top starts...

--Detlef

[TDean]

I remember the stage your talking about Brian. That one really screwed me, worst of the match.

While most people were charging the first target's fault line then lining up for the poppers, I thought that to be a waste of space. I stepped out of the box towards the poppers in order to begin shooting those partials through the doorway sooner. I then tried to engage the poppers while moving at a 45deg at them. I missed ALOT!! Ran the gun dry.....static reload....activated the popper....pulled the trigger twice on the swinger...Uh-oh..gun jammed....rack the slide...back up to the swinger again for one shot...finish the COF.

I turned around to see that one popper was still standing with two edge hits on it. Called for a calibration, it went down. Bad stage, bad.

Something wierd about that stage was said. The stage winner's time may have been incorrect.

Not to take away from the skill of this shooter, he great, but a witness said that the timer didn't pick up his shots on the last array. The RO was too far away he said. Looking at the times, around 2 seconds faster than most of the super-squad, the report may be true. Purely guess work at this point though.

Charging fault lines seems to be popular for some, Taran for example.

It seems to me that the extra distance covered in order to get closer to the target is wasteful, but apparently you can make up for that time with hoser-splits and improved accuracy? I'll have to investigate this technique so I'll know when to apply it.

[Loves2Shoot]

The stage winner's time may have been incorrect.

Not to take away from the skill of this shooter, he great, but a witness said that the timer didn't pick up his shots on the last array. The RO was too far away he said. Looking at the times, around 2 seconds faster than most of the super-squad, the report may be true. Purely guess work at this point though.

I agree, I know him well and I think there was something funny about the time. He is fast, but not that fast. I told that to his face too. He swears he nailed it, but I have my serious doubts that the timer got all the shots.

[TDean]

Ya, that sucks, but good for him. I guess you have to be a sharp RO to "feel" something wasn't right and look to the timer to count shots fired. And what squadmate is going to say something to the RO even if your suspecting it? I don't think I would....or would I...depends on who the shooter was I guess.

Hey, I asked KJ if you were in their squad, he said no.

[ErikW]

Tom that was my first stage and I shot it like you. I did go a bit toward the doorway, but hey they were partials and I had first stage jitters. Moving toward the swinger in a short sprint, then the poppers and the static on the move (nailed them!), then hosing down the swinger real close sprinting away. After that you faced the two partials and a full target or two, but you had to go deepish into the opening to see the full. Brian, did the big dogs come in engaging those partials? I played it conservatively, stayed left so as not to shoot wood, went deep, and started with the full.

[eric nielsen]

Wow.

This is probably the best forum thread ever. Almost everyone had a really good observation about what separates the top 16 in a big match.

I would just add: Part of what separates the scores at a big match is - the big match itself. The course designs, for instance.

Hi demand = hi opportunity to excel; shooting accurately on the move is the most demanding thing going. If you skip a 2-second shortcut on a stage, some GM is going to post a time of 10 seconds and really put you behind.

Lastly: the timer not picking up the shots DOES happen - it happened to me on a stage where I was the RO, not keeping up with the shooter, and not holding the timer up high over my head. Last position was a 4' wall with 3 targets on the ground behind it. The run in there was more than 10 steps, i.e. about 3 seconds of clock time.

Through ignorance, I ended up handing a stage win to a friend, nice guy and all, but really he's a C-class shooter, stage after stage. It was a charity match and I'm glad no one wanted to protest - I would have been totally embarrassed by that.