Matthew_Mink Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 After shooting this weekend, me and my buds were sitting around the restaurant entertaining ourselves. We got on the subject of going sub-minor at 3GN this year. That brought us to thinking that what-if there was another category of power floor? What started out as a joke turned into what we thought was a good idea. Major: 5/4/2, no change there Minor: 5/3/1, no change there either Wimpy: 1/0/-1 for everyone that can't make minor. So instead of paying your money and zeroing the match, how about 1 point for an A, 0 for B/C, and -1 for a D. This would actually open up the door for .22 shooters in handguns, as well as an accuracy test for those that go sub-minor. Anyway, we liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Hmmm...let's see we have the concepts of speed, power, and accuracy. So far accuracy has been all but eliminated with the in your face hoser crap that I have so grown to despise. Power is down to 125 for production and minor and a mouse will fart harder than that. We have 165 for major and the vast majority of reloading manuals don't even go that low with mid burning rate powders. Nothing personal, but I think the idea of letting someone shoot for score if they can't even make minor is just plain silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 And I think regular Minor is too wimpy. I can't argue with the logistics and popularity of Winchester Value-Paks in 9mm though. Anyway...we have a .22 pistol as a side match every other month (alternating with 3-gun as the side). There is a lot of reasons why it isn't really worth the effort (I think), but nobody is turned away. I am of the opinion that we just don't need to dilute the division much more. We are, after all, competition shooters. If everybody shoots a different division...were is the competition. Without competiton, we become a handholding social club...might as well start dressing funny. I guess that I think that we don't need to try to be everything to everybody. That isn't where are growth should come from. Tell you what though...shooting the .22 pistol in Steel Challenge is pretty cool. (Sorry for the rant...I am trying to word out my thoughts for an ongoing conversation that I am having with our Area Director.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Flex says "Without competiton, we become a handholding social club...might as well start dressing funny." Since I finally got to meet you face to face, I think I'll refrain from commenting about the way you dress. I'll wait till I see you more than once before making any judgements! As for the post.........I'm one of those wimps shootin minor with my 34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Chad, I was referring to other shooting sports...where the clothes seem to take priority over the shooting. For our game...if you would like...I can look into setting you up in the lastest "Flex Fashions...garmets of the gamers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 Cut-offs and Sonic T-shirts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Matt: I want you to know that my reply is more of a rant than a discussion. I really do know where you are coming from and I didn't intend to scorch your eyebrows with a flame thrower. Flex: Hmmm...you wouldn't be setting us up with clothes out of that catalog that came with your Master card would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 Ron, no problemo, I didn't even take it as a flame. This was all slightly tongue in cheek anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Matt, Now that I am over my "rant"... Your idea would allow shooters to keep playing...and it would work for the .22 pistols. It wouldn't have to be a division...just a click on the scoring software...to "wimpy" on the power factor button. Ron, Victoria's Secret is a hometown company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 Kyle, That's what we thought was so funny about the concept, can you imagine the guy that came to shoot Production and made 124.9pf? This guy would creep through the stages shooting all Alpha's. .22's could be real fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Matthew, No more beer for you, OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 Would you believe that I was designated driver and no alcohol was needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Interesting idea, but .... When we at our club have our monthly "IPSC-like" night at which just 3 guys have an IPSC license, we allow everyone to join. Nobody takes a .22lr even if that's the only gun they own. They borrow whatever bigger caliber they can get. The lightest caliber joining those nights is .38 Special (wimpy, wimpy ) I feel that there just has to be a minimum for IPSC/USPSA sanctioned matches. What you do at your own club (IPSC level I) is (and should be IMHO) left more to your own creativity. I think the current rules are fine as they are now. If you want an accuracy test: by all means pay your money, shoot the match and copy down your scores after each stage or something like that. Ron : I despise that "hoser-mentality" just as much as you do ! I shoot Production Division but my (factory !) loads make PF 155 and I'm quite happy with that. In fact, PF 125 is a bit too wimpy IMO to Most of my shots are clean A's BTW :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 HI guys, Jokes aside, I fully support the introduction of "sub-9mm" calibres into IPSC, but as a separate "IPSC Lite" match, not as a "sub-minor" portion of a regular match. It's physically impossible to use .22 calibre guns in a regular IPSC match because they have insufficient power to knock down poppers, and our rules require metal targets fall to score. However a dedicated "IPSC Lite" match would be an excellent introduction to the "major leagues" for youngsters. We'd probably need two calibre categories - one for .22 pistols only and another for the "sandwich class" calibres such as .25, .32 and .380 pistols. As far as targets are concerned, we could either use plastic poppers or we could use regular poppers but with modified rules to allow hits alone to be scored. For paper targets, I'd push for the 1/2 size IPSC targets used by Airsoft practitioners to be used, as this would serve to focus competitors on accuracy. Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 This could help, although the situation in NL is somewhat different from e.g. the USA. In NL you cannot own a firearm if you are under 18. Our National IPSC rules state that you have to own your own firearm for use in IPSC matches. So the very young people will not get involved in IPSC. However, most people start out with a .22lr handgun. If that could be used in "IPSC Lite" matches, it could help promote IPSC as it would lower barriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 We have the one local match that does .22 pistol. Like Vince brought up, the steel is different. Our local Match Director made up some steel just for the .22's (less than a foot tall). We offer .22 pistol at another local match. Nobody has shot .22 there yet...which is OK with me, since I do the scores there, and would have to setup a whole match in the scoring program. Matt's idea of the "wimpy" power factor would make it a lot easier on the folks doing stats. And, as he mentioned, those that screw up and don't make Minor...at least they get to play (which is probably better than send them packing). From what I have seen, and like Garfield said, people will borrow a 9mm before showing up with something lesser. Our .22 pistol matches are all but dead. Steel Challenge...that is the place for .22's, and it is an awesome game for newbies as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJPoLo Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 It's physically impossible to use .22 calibre guns in a regular IPSC match because they have insufficient power to knock down poppers, and our rules require metal targets fall to score. As far as targets are concerned, we could either use plastic poppers or we could use regular poppers but with modified rules to allow hits alone to be scored. For paper targets, I'd push for the 1/2 size IPSC targets used by Airsoft practitioners to be used, as this would serve to focus competitors on accuracy. Comments? I hate this idea and am so vocal about it locally that (I'm sure) all the mommies and daddies in my 'hood who want their 6 year old to shoot club IPSC matches hate me. IPSC puts an empahis on accuracy, speed and POWER. As range master of my local club, I certainly don't want to spent any of our money on plastic poppers, etc. to make our COF's .22 friendly. I am going to design and approve fun, challenging COF's that may include popper activated targets that will keep our seasoned shooters and our new shooters coming back for more of the same next month. If you want to introduce the 'lil ones (or anyone else who can't deal with a 125 power factor gun) to the "action" shooting sports, take them to a Steel Challenge match that allows .22's. THEN, after they have had a taste of that and have tried a center fire handgun that meets the minimum requirements for IPSC/USPSA, take them to a local IPSC club match with their >125 PF gun. I don't care what one's local club does in regards to a .22 division, but I will never support a USPSA pop gun division which limits my stage design options. <flame-proof suit on, mommies and daddies> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Our club has a steel challenge format .22 match that fills the need for pop gun speed shooting just fine around my house. I even hear that there is an IDPA style match for the caliber impaired who seek to use their .22's for some tactical playtime. I would suggest following those models and leaving IPSC the way it is. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 please do not even try to make this a recognised ipsc division as the politicians the world over would seize on it and say BUT YOU DONT NEED A 9mm/.38 or .40/.45 TO SHOOT IPSC SO YOU CANT HAVE ONE . you may not have known or may have forgotten but they banned anything bigger than .22 first as there was "no recognised sport in which they were needed"in the UK then the lying hypocrite BLIAR banned the .22s as well . so dont do it. if recoil is a problem for the youngsters then they are too young to shoot. one of our club members shot a 9mm browning aged 8 years old and she beat most of the old gits accuracy wise. alternatively shoot a compensated gun in modified/open.. good idea about scoring those that fail chrono as wimpy though. james h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Guys, Do you hear what you're saying? You want to tell aspiring shooters "Go next door and play, kiddo, because you can't play in my sandbox until you're a big boy". And I'm not suggesting we change the IPSC we all know and love. I'm only suggesting we create a "Little League", which follows the "Major League" rulebook 90%. James, Don't you think that Governments could use the same argument now in respect of Airsoft guns? For example in Hong Kong, the "Airsoft IPSC" guys have a membership which is three times the size of the "real" IPSC. Do I consider them a threat? No way, Jose. In fact I conduct RO training courses for them in the hope that some of them will eventually migrate to the "Major Leagues", as many of them already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Yeah...you guys swung me back over...screw that wimpy pf stuff. Lets keep USPSA/IPSC focused and on track...not diluted and watered down. Now, if the newbie shows up and only has a .22, then we can let them play at the local level...they can be in the "fun match". We don't want to sell-out what we are though, in favor of a few memberships. Let stay strong and trust that doing the right thing will bring the memberships to us. (This in no way means I don't think we could use some marketing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Hi Vince, re airsoft: that was exactly their argument for banning .22. i.e. you can still shoot with co2 pistols as their is virtually no difference between them so we will ban them. Personally i dislike airsoft (yes i have shot matches) and think that if we(ipsc) recognise them its a slippy slope. Our government(dictatorship) is already making moves to license/ban airguns/airpistols and/or make their sale illegal. If you want to allow a lower power factor then try correcting the scores by the percentage that the ammo failed chrono by i.e. pf100 = a multplier of 0.8 so a hf of 5 becaomes a hf of 4. Any change in the calibre requirements is unnecessary. Iwas not intending to squash your idea merely point out what may happen if we drop the .38/9mm floor. Any thing that brings in more and younger shooters is a good thing. May i suggest a new category of youths for 16 to 19 and juniors becomes below 16 and some way of encouraging match organisers to reward the juniors/youths more ? Personally i do not consider any body over 18 to be a junior and that needs a change. still enough spleen vented see you at a match sometime james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 This idea seems very good for me, because I could introduce my childrens in IPSC sooner. They have now 9, and even 125 is very hard for them... Ramos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Would you believe that I was designated driver and no alcohol was needed? Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kindlyoldcoach Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 please do not even try to make this a recognised ipsc division as the politicians the world over would seize on it and say BUT YOU DONT NEED A 9mm/.38 or .40/.45 TO SHOOT IPSC SO YOU CANT HAVE ONE . I have seen a variation of this scenario actually happen, in a rifle discipline I used to coach. It used to be exclusively shot with .22LR, and then air rifles were introduced in a parallel program, to "allow increased participation". Surprise! It's now officially 100% air rifle, nationwide. The .22s are GONE. Only took ten years. Dilution is irreversible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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