.38 loads / Major

[kevinpagano]

I havent shot uspsa for a few years and thinking about getting back in using my 586. I cant find in the rules where there is a caliber restriction for major in Revo division.

Can you shoot .38 to major and are there any suggestions on a load to get there safely?

Thanks in advance for your help.

kevin

[Rather-B-Huntin]

I havent shot uspsa for a few years and thinking about getting back in using my 586. I cant find in the rules where there is a caliber restriction for major in Revo division.

Can you shoot .38 to major and are there any suggestions on a load to get there safely?

Thanks in advance for your help.

kevin

You can get close with some bullet/powder combos, but .38 isn't going to safely make major. Better try some lighter to middle of the road .357's.

[Flexmoney]

Whether you should and can load to it safely...I don't know. Per the rules...

I havent shot uspsa for a few years and thinking about getting back in using my 586. I cant find in the rules where there is a caliber restriction for major in Revo division.

Can you shoot .38 to major...?

Am I right in thinking that a few rule books back (red book)...there was a requirement of 357Mag to make Major?

I don't believe the current rule book has any such requirement. (Other than the minimum for ANY power factor, which is .38 cal. / 9x19 mm (0.354” x 0.748”) )

From the current rule book:

APPENDIX D6 — Revolver Division

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length --- .38 cal. / 9x19 mm (0.354” x 0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major --- No

[vrmn1]

Yes you can shoot 38 and yes you can safely make major with 38 case's IN A GUN CHAMBERED FOR 357.

You will be way out of 38 special pressures.

But well below 357 pressure.

The problem comes in at that level recoil is pretty sharp.

[kevinpagano]

Would I be better off just shooting minor in this division until I get a proper setup??

[Rather-B-Huntin]

Yes you can shoot 38 and yes you can safely make major with 38 case's IN A GUN CHAMBERED FOR 357.

You will be way out of 38 special pressures.

But well below 357 pressure.

The problem comes in at that level recoil is pretty sharp.

My response is based on data from current loading manuals. Of course you can hot rod a .38 case into major, and a .357 chambered gun would probably handle it. But you run the risk of sticking/splitting cases, possibly blowing primers, etc. If you want .357 Mag. results, use a .357 Mag. case.

Don't try sending a boy to do a mans work.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Anything is possible, but not always fun or advisable. Can you make major in a .38 Special case? yes, but not within .38 Special pressures. So, do you want to have a supply of near-.357 pressure loads, in .38 cases? If you have one, and onle only .38/.357 revovler, then ammo mixups won't be a problem.

But, if you have a 442 around for carry, do you want Major .38 ammo on hand?

As for recoil, at the Ecuador WS, I watched Agnes Baumgartner shooting her 586. Afterwards I asked her if shooting Minor was much of a handicap. "I'm shooting Major." The observed recoil and muzzle blast of a .357 load with 200 grain RNs was soft enough to deceive me. If a 5' tall woman can shoot Major and finds it no problem, then the rest of us can find a loading formula.

[Bubber]

kevinpagano, Which 586 do you have, 4", 6" ? You can make major PF safely with a 38 special case shooting in a 357 Cylinder. Major or Minor Hmmm. Kevin what are your strengths? Mine is accuracy and being smooth. Shoot to have fun and enjoy the moments. If a person shooting major has the same score as I do, ie same A's, B',s and C's, (As Trevor stated in his post on Skating up hill) I would give up maybe 5% raw score. But I usually make up some of it by better hits. Overall it is a 2% difference in what I have been doing. (That is scoring my hits as major and then comparing it to my actual score as minor) Which is all that actually counts it is how I do against myself not how I PLACE in a match. My opinion is go for it with the 586, have fun and see how you do. Try minor vs major at different matches and see which one you like best. I have a good minor load for the 160 grain moly bullet with Solo 1000 if you are interested. And anyway I can assist let me know. later rdd

[10mmdave]

I'll pm hdgun and get him to post, he was shooting a 6 inch 686 using 158 grn Berrys making major.

I shot the gun and load and the recoil was not bad at all, not near as bad as I had been lead to believe

and no worse than my 6.5" 610 and better than my 5" 625 shooting 230's

He also converted this gun to shoot 38 super and he's still making major and it is accurate.

(kicked my bee-hind one match shooting 50 yrd targets)

[Carlos]

IF there is a safe way to make major with a modern well built, +p capable .38, then 200 grain bullets are the way to go.

You need to get past 825 FPS with a 200 grain bullet.

The Lee manual has published data for .38 Special and 200 grain bullets that safely takes you close to 800 FPS. And there is only one domestic powder listed (I am sure that certain V V powders would be more safe).

If you persist in trying to make major in .38, please use the gun with the longest barrel possible (pref. a .357), 200 grain bullets, stick to the slowest burning powders and work up carefully.

Anything is possible, but not always fun or advisable. Can you make major in a .38 Special case? yes, but not within .38 Special pressures. So, do you want to have a supply of near-.357 pressure loads, in .38 cases? If you have one, and onle only .38/.357 revovler, then ammo mixups won't be a problem.

But, if you have a 442 around for carry, do you want Major .38 ammo on hand?

As for recoil, at the Ecuador WS, I watched Agnes Baumgartner shooting her 586. Afterwards I asked her if shooting Minor was much of a handicap. "I'm shooting Major." The observed recoil and muzzle blast of a .357 load with 200 grain RNs was soft enough to deceive me. If a 5' tall woman can shoot Major and finds it no problem, then the rest of us can find a loading formula.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Carlos

[10mmdave]

GATT bullets used to make a nifty 200 grn LRN in 38 cal.

Come to think of it I have 500 at home some where

Have to dig 'em out and give them a try.

[JFlowers]

200 and 195 grain cast bullets seem to be very scarce, but 180gr are available from a variety of sources.

[jmax]

We used to load up 230 gr wad cutters in 38 cases with 1000ft/sec velocity out on my 6" L-Frame with no case splits, flattened primers or tight cases upon extraction. Recoil was not that fierce with those loads and I shot them for years at Second Chance in the same revolvers w/o issues. It boils down to finding the bullets, using a slow burn rate powder and load development while consulting with powder manufacturers comments.

[hdgun]

No problem making major in 38 cases, at least in a 5" 686. 158grn bullets using Unique will get you there with no pressure problem or sticking. This load is a little snappy but not uncomfortable. Like jmax stated we used to shoot the 230grn logs making 200PF from a 38 case back in the bowling pin days. The Key is just finding the right powder.

[Cherryriver]

I already posted this in another thread, but here you go:

200gr bullets in .38 cases can make major without going over the redline with certain powders.

I posted about some 200gr conical-nosed lead slugs from the old National Bullet Company I had that I put up in old .38 Special brass with Unique at Alliant book max, but a book from about eight or ten years ago.

They made major in my 4" Colt Official Police .38 by a small margin and were extremely accurate and pleasant-shooting. The empties fell out and the gun still shoots excellently after 300 of this load.

I also found some old Speer 200gr FMJ conicals that, with VV 350 and still inside the book numbers, made major effortlessly in my 4" Colt King Cobra in .38 Special cases. Primers were still rounded and again, the empties fell out.

Several Vihta Vuori published loads make major in .38 Special in 6" barrels.

Finally, Buffalo Bore makes a super personal protection load with a 158gr lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint that makes almost 1000fps in a snub! I've fired it in my aluminum Colt Agent without any difficulty apart from choking on the dollar-a-round cost. It makes major in a six-incher easily and being factory, of course meets SAAMI specs.

It can be done. Heavy bullets and the right propellant and you're there.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Cherryriver

[kevinpagano]

Thanks for all the advise. I am or will be shooting a 4 inch 586. I just picked up a Safariland holster and will be aquiring some speedloaders and belt from them as well. I think I will start out shooting minor for now until i get geared up to load then i will start playing with some loads. I think focusing on the trigger and sights to get good hits for a while would be a good thing as I do not have much time behind a revolver and no time in a competitive environment. Since the gun I will be using was my fathers and I do not want to wear it out. I will be looking for another revolver to take its place. I would like to stay with the .38/357 format as I just like this round in a revolver. Would any of you suggest I move to a 6 inch gun?

Thanks again for all the help and replies.

Kevin

[EEH]

We used to load up 230 gr wad cutters in 38 cases with 1000ft/sec velocity out on my 6" L-Frame with no case splits, flattened primers or tight cases upon extraction. Recoil was not that fierce with those loads and I shot them for years at Second Chance in the same revolvers w/o issues. It boils down to finding the bullets, using a slow burn rate powder and load development while consulting with powder manufacturers comments.

I also loaed 230 gr wad cutters with blue dot powder for bowling pins just last year they were pretty good recoil not bad--so it can be done easily good luck

[Cherryriver]

Kevin-

For USPSA, going to a six-inch will improve your scores quite a bit. The longer sight radius is no small matter. Particularly if you're going to shoot minor, there's only one hit that you can accept, alpha, and you'll need to be dead-on.

For us, ah, more mature shooters, getting the front sight further away is a big plus all by itself.

A six-incher also makes it easier to make power factor, giving fifty or sixty more fps, depending on the factors.

A longer barrel also makes for less blast, blast being a distraction for many (I hate noise!).

The extra metal, way out front where you really need it, reduces rise and gets you back on for the succeeding shot more effectively. I understand some folks believe that shorter and/or lighter-in-the-nose guns "handle faster", but I don't see it that way.

Elsewhere I posted about how I set myself up for a timed test (using the IDPA targets at hand on the range) using matched pairs of light- and heavy-barrel guns that were otherwise identical: a Diamondback versus a Police Positive Special and a Python versus a .357 Model. In both cases the heavy-nose full-lug guns were distinctly faster with better scores.

Unfortunately, I didn't have my X86s along that day to compare four against six, but I know that any match where I can use the longer 686 I have, I do, because I'll do better. Even just the accuracy of hits improvement is worth it right there.

Try it yourself and see.

On the other hand, the bonus of the four-incher is that you can use it in IDPA as well, and since in many places there's lots of IDPA matches available, you can expand your range of options that way.

One small note if you're confined to factory ammunition in .38 Special- lots of it doesn't make power factor, especially in a four-inch.

In either case, if your 586 is a goodie, hang onto it: it's my favorite Smith to go shooting with.

[professor]

I've been shooting major using 38 Spl brass in a 686 /w 6" bbl. The load was 158 gr moly coated bullets with 5.75 gr Titegroup [iIRK}. The brass didn't hang up in the cylinder [using moon clips to get all 6 out at a time], but every now and then I had the brass rip circumferentially, leaving a ring of brass in that cylinder as the head portion came out with the moon clip. I retired a lot of brass after a set number of reloads, and started checking each individual shell for incipient cracks.

I tried to make major in 38 Spl brass with lighter bullets, and came to the conclusion that it wasn't possible to do that safely, even shooting it out of a 357. It just took too much powder to get the lighter bullets moving fast enough, and I was getting too many split cases. And flattened primers, using Federal 100s, was a given.

[earplug]

Lyman makes a 195 grain 358 round nose mold and Saeco makes a 200 grain 358 grain round nose mold. I haven't tried them, but they would be a good starting point if you wanted a heavy bullet for making major or a really soft shooting minor.

You can save a pile of cash making your own bullets, if you have the time.