The AKC

[edgerat]

I hate the AKC, yes, the American Kennel Club. An organization responsible for the bastardization and ruin of many many great breeds of dogs. Take the Labrador retriever for one, the "english" pointer for another. They super-size or minimize breeds and modify their genetics in ways to make them more "presentable" at shows. Give me a "field" lab or pointer any day and I will show you a dog with more smarts, better health and a better chance at living longer than any show dog around. Boo AKC.

Isaac

Edited February 11, 2009 by edgerat

[shopgun]

I hear ya. Bench Champion means about as much as Beauty Queen.Long on looks, Short on brains. If it doesn't say FC (field champ) in the pedigree, you got a fashion model. If you want a hot HUNTING Lab, Call Mary Howley, Candlewood kennels in Wisconsin.

[edgerat]

I hear ya. Bench Champion means about as much as Beauty Queen.Long on looks, Short on brains. If it doesn't say FC (field champ) in the pedigree, you got a fashion model. If you want a hot HUNTING Lab, Call Mary Howley, Candlewood kennels in Wisconsin.

I love Mary and have owned a couple of her bloodline, great great dogs

[Barrettone]

That's why you are better off buying a hunting dog with a British bloodline. They have not bastardized the breeds just to get the "look" they want. I made the mistake of buying a yellow lab from an American breeder. AKC papers and all. I took it to the most reputable trainer in Michigan for waterfowl training (he is featured in all our outdoor magazines up here). Just two days into the training, he asked me to come pick her up. I said..."Man, that was quick". I get there, and he hands me the dog on a leash and an envelope with all my money in it. He told me that I had the ubequious honor of being only the second person he has EVER had to refund out of over 10,000 dogs he has trained. My dog was, acording to him, ABSOLUTELY UNTRAINABLE. Apparently, he works with a reward-style training program. He said that he tried that, and the dog simply didn't respond. He had to literally beat the damn thing with a wiffle ball bat to get it to listen, and by the next day, it had "forgot" the previous days training. He said it broke his heart to see such a dumb creature, and that he was surprised it could remember to breath. He explained that it was a victim of the AKC breeders skewing the bloodlines to such a point that I basically had a mongoloid-type retard of a dog that looked damn pretty. I tried to get rid of her, but people who purchased her would keep bringing her back because she would chew their furniture, chew their cable tv and phone lines, or simply be destructive. Finally had to put her down. Sad really, that greed and desire for looks has driven the breeds to be so screwed up here in America. Hate to say it, but the Brits got us beat hands down. I'll only buy from their lines now.

[JFlowers]

Thats why all my dogs have been mutts. Usually get something fairly survivable. My mother always loved Cocker Spaniels, but geez they were bred to the point they were just dumb happy furballs.

[JKSNIPER]

Any trainer that beats an animal is not fit to train animals.

We're supposed to be the intelligent half of the equation of human+dog.

We have to learn to speak "dog" because none of them no matter how hard they try will ever learn english.

There are an awful lot of supposed trainers of animals (Now that they're on TV and theres some serious coin in it) and I don't care how much success or famous they are...if they beat an animal (Even with a wiffle ball bat) they should go take a vacation or get out of training animals.

Dogs do not intentionally disobey. They don't have spite in them or scheme or connive.

They try to please us but they're not mind readers.

Think of them as slow children...the want to do what we want but they're havig trouble getting it.

JK

[Ridgerunnr]

while I can certainly agree with the response about AKC HOWEVER..even worse is John Q public that breeds either by accident or other wise..Many GOOD breeders breed for conformation as well as ability. Dogs with good feet good teeth, good lines perform better int he field in speed agility and can hunt longer. Many can even hunt longer into their years as their body//feet legs do not break down. So yes ability is a great thing but someone also has to breed to maintain structure as well as skill ..other wise the breed lacks in that area

[Rolex]

+ 1 to the Labs.

[hopalong]

Although NOT AKC,

My UKC Coonhounds I used in my Breeding programs all carried titles of CH. or GCH ( bench CH, or Grand Bench CH), AND they carried NT. CH or GNT. CH.

(Nite Champion, GrandNite champion).

the standards UKC uses promotes good body physics that promote athletic abilities so they can hunt at night with ease.

Funny thing, people who looked at the puppies always told me that they didn't care if they were bench champions or not, BUT they always chose the "pretty" ones first.

Hop

BUT I see your point.

[Carmoney]

+ 1 to the Labs.

You can still find good Labs in this area. Being right between the Mississippi and Central flyways, there are enough serious waterfowlers around here to demand high quality retrievers. Watching a fully finished water dog do its thing is an absolutely remarkable experience. Some day I would like to own a good Lab myself.

(Every truly good hunting Lab I've ever seen has been black in color. Whatever they've done to create "chocolate" or "yellow" Labs does not appear to have been a good thing....)

Edited February 11, 2009 by Carmoney

[D.carden]

+ 1 to the Labs.

My Black Lab had the gift of kicking-up Black Tail deer in the Sierra's. My wife and I would do day and over-nite back pack trips on trails that doubled (in some areas) as game trails also.........He could never run one down though. It was fun to watch.......

Sampson is 16yrs/5mo old and lying here next to my chair doing what old folks do best.....SNOOZE..

The Vet cant beleive he's still alive............Oh, and No AKC papers..

[VegasOPM]

I'm particularly annoyed with what they have done to the German Shepherd breed. They put so much focus on the low back end, that the dogs are starting to look more like ramps than canines. I have seen pictures of Shepherds from both Germany and the US taken before 1970, and NONE of the dogs had that characteristic. The incidents of Hip Dysplasia were pretty much non-existent too. Apparently, reinforcing the breeding of flawed animals has a detrimental effect, who knew?

[edgerat]

I'm particularly annoyed with what they have done to the German Shepherd breed. They put so much focus on the low back end, that the dogs are starting to look more like ramps than canines. I have seen pictures of Shepherds from both Germany and the US taken before 1970, and NONE of the dogs had that characteristic. The incidents of Hip Dysplasia were pretty much non-existent too. Apparently, reinforcing the breeding of flawed animals has a detrimental effect, who knew?

Vegas I forgot about the GSD!!! Sloping back dogs that don't live past 6 or 7 without being completely crippled from hip problems.

[SiG Lady]

Some of the German Shepards that end up in K-9 Unit duty suffer prematurely from their already-disposed-to-hip-problems condition by having to sit in the back seat of police cruisers for extended periods.

Even when ordinary Shepards are in good condition, they still "walk funny" and look like they're struggling to merely move forward.

[Barrettone]

Any trainer that beats an animal is not fit to train animals. There are an awful lot of supposed trainers of animals (Now that they're on TV and theres some serious coin in it) and I don't care how much success or famous they are...if they beat an animal (Even with a wiffle ball bat) they should go take a vacation or get out of training animals.

JK

I hear you JK. I should have been more elaborate in my explanation. This gentleman (whom I have trained with MANY TIMES) ONLY works on a reward system. He does not even advocate shock collars as a means of training. It was only after exhausting EVERY POSSIBLE REWARD TECHNIQUE, and trust me, he knows many, that he, as an absolute last resort tried a shock collar and after she wouldn't respond to that, he physically repremanded her. The sad fact is, this was not a "slow child". This was a SEVERELY RETARDED CREATURE that was bred as such. It was not it's fault, and it did not ask to be born that way, but the breeders did it. That is why I made EVERY EFFORT POSSIBLE to find it a home. I even took it to the Humane Society as a last ditch, and it bit the attendent, and the reccomendation was made to put her down. In retrospect, I am glad it was an adult that got bit and not one of my kids. I draw the line at putting animals before humans. I hold no ill will against the trainer after what I witnessed first-hand. I guess you had to be there to understand...

[shopgun]

+ 1 to the Labs.

You can still find good Labs in this area. Being right between the Mississippi and Central flyways, there are enough serious waterfowlers around here to demand high quality retrievers. Watching a fully finished water dog do its thing is an absolutely remarkable experience. Some day I would like to own a good Lab myself.

(Every truly good hunting Lab I've ever seen has been black in color. Whatever they've done to create "chocolate" or "yellow" Labs does not appear to have been a good thing....)

Carmony, It's the breeding, not the color. There are more GOOD black labs, because there are more black labs. My latest sweetheart, Hannah, came from a litter of 4 blacks and 3 yellows. 3of the 4 grandparents are field champs, the other female has a lot of points. The sire is a FC and the Dam is a high point dog. at 9 1/2 months, she is scary smart and a real hotrod. Can't wait for fall.

[warpspeed]

My lab was AKC registered but his parents were also field champs.

He was an awesome hunting dog. He loved geese I miss him so much.

[Tiny Warrior]

I saw a show on t.v once about how breeders (who are involved in the show ring). It was absolutley horrible. the things they do to get that perfect specimen. If they got a puppy that wasn't good enough, it would be destroyed. Example: Rhodesian Ridgebacks. One breeder admitted to killing any puppy that wasn't born with a ridge on their back.

Having a puppy whose parents are champions isn't really important to me. I just want a well bred dog. For Dobermanns, I do like the Eurpoean line better though. They look a little different than the canadian/american.

[Airedale]

The AKC is a puppy registry and really no more than that.

While they have performance events but the real $ is in registering litters. Buying an AKC registered pup means nothing.

Having said that, all our Airedales are AKC registered and, of course, our pups. Why? That's the first question most prospective buyers ask.

Dave

[Tiny Warrior]

The AKC is a puppy registry and really no more than that.

Buying an AKC registered pup means nothing.

Having said that, all our Airedales are AKC registered and, of course, our pups. Why? That's the first question most prospective buyers ask.

Dave

If it means nothing, why do most prospective buyers ask?

My Dobe was CKC registered, along with her parents, but I didn't care. I understand why some people may think the pups HAVE to be registered, but there are other more important things they should be asking.

AKC supports/promotes shows like Westminster, which leads to the above posts about breeding.

[Airedale]

The AKC is a puppy registry and really no more than that.

Buying an AKC registered pup means nothing.

Having said that, all our Airedales are AKC registered and, of course, our pups. Why? That's the first question most prospective buyers ask.

Dave

If it means nothing, why do most prospective buyers ask?

My Dobe was CKC registered, along with her parents, but I didn't care. I understand why some people may think the pups HAVE to be registered, but there are other more important things they should be asking.

AKC supports/promotes shows like Westminster, which leads to the above posts about breeding.

I should have explained the "it means nothing" statement.

AKC registry guarantees nothing concerning soundness, temperment, or suitability of breed purpose.

Too many prospective puppy buyers believe AKC papers insures a better quality dog than an unregistered one.

I agree there are many more important questions a prospective buyer should ask.

Dave

[shopgun]

I saw a show on t.v once about how breeders (who are involved in the show ring). It was absolutley horrible. the things they do to get that perfect specimen. If they got a puppy that wasn't good enough, it would be destroyed. Example: Rhodesian Ridgebacks. One breeder admitted to killing any puppy that wasn't born with a ridge on their back.

Having a puppy whose parents are champions isn't really important to me. I just want a well bred dog. For Dobermanns, I do like the Eurpoean line better though. They look a little different than the canadian/american.

Tiny, I can only speak to retrievers. Champion means bench champion: aka SHOW DOG. Field Champion means a Working dog that has excelled in very demanding field trials that show the merits of a true working breed. Sort of like comparing a hunky model holding a gun he has never shot to Leatham or Jarrett.

[Carmoney]

Carmony, It's the breeding, not the color. There are more GOOD black labs, because there are more black labs. My latest sweetheart, Hannah, came from a litter of 4 blacks and 3 yellows. 3of the 4 grandparents are field champs, the other female has a lot of points. The sire is a FC and the Dam is a high point dog. at 9 1/2 months, she is scary smart and a real hotrod. Can't wait for fall.

There's an exception to every rule, I guess.

The serious hunting lab people I've spoken with (again, keep in mind this is Iowa, and hunting is a really big deal here) seem to have reached a consenses that the breeders are going out of their way to create more and more yellow and chocolate labs every year because that's what the young suburban housewives tend to want, for whatever reason. And that's no different than any other effort to breed in a particular "look" in terms of its gradual detrimental impact upon a breed. Or so it seems to me.

[Carmoney]

Field Champion means a Working dog that has excelled in very demanding field trials that show the merits of a true working breed. Sort of like comparing a hunky model holding a gun he has never shot to Leatham or Jarrett.

Yes..... But on the other hand, there are field champion animals that will never make truly good hunting dogs, because the tasks at which they excel in field trials may not reflect the reality of actual hunting. Many of the serious hunting dog people no longer put much stock in AKC field trial credentialing, for that reason.

To give one example, around here when you see a "field champion pointer" for sale, the most likely reason he's for sale is because he's such a big runner that he's practically worthless for hunting pheasants on foot. But he won those field trials because the shooters and judges literally chased him around on horseback while he flew around and burned up the field. Not to mention the fact that his field champion pace may leave him too exhausted to hunt after an hour or two.

Meanwhile, the talented, thorough, methodical upland pointing dog that consistently locates birds within reasonable range of the gun will never win the field trial "race," but will much more consistently produce results in the actual field.

Just something to think about.

[shopgun]

Field Champion means a Working dog that has excelled in very demanding field trials that show the merits of a true working breed. Sort of like comparing a hunky model holding a gun he has never shot to Leatham or Jarrett.

Yes..... But on the other hand, there are field champion animals that will never make truly good hunting dogs, because the tasks at which they excel in field trials may not reflect the reality of actual hunting. Many of the serious hunting dog people no longer put much stock in AKC field trial credentialing, for that reason.

To give one example, around here when you see a "field champion pointer" for sale, the most likely reason he's for sale is because he's such a big runner that he's practically worthless for hunting pheasants on foot. But he won those field trials because the shooters and judges literally chased him around on horseback while he flew around and burned up the field. Not to mention the fact that his field champion pace may leave him too exhausted to hunt after an hour or two.

Meanwhile, the talented, thorough, methodical upland pointing dog that consistently locates birds within reasonable range of the gun will never win the field trial "race," but will much more consistently produce results in the actual field.

Just something to think about.

Agree with you on pointers. Don't on retrievers. A retrievers job is to ----Retrieve. If they don't excel at that, they don't win trials. To say that kind of performance wont transfer to a hunting situation is like saying Tom Knapp may be able to break clays but probably cant hit a pheasant.