Running and facing uprange, pointing downrange

[sslav]

Lets see.

There have been ADs resulting in gunshot wounds while re-holstering both on and off the clock. There have been no ADs resulting in gunshot wounds while moving uprange with the gun pointed down range.

You are advocating a technique that has resulted in gunshot wounds over one that may cause a round to go over the berm?

The safest way to move uprange is to unload, hammer down, holster while facing downrange. Then move uprange, face downrange, draw, load and continue the course of fire. As far as I know there is nothing in the rules that prevent you from doing this. This would be safer than running uprange holding the gun facing downrange. Reholstering a loaded gun is not safer as evidenced by the facts (not opinions) presented so far.

[ima45dv8]

We can agree to disagree peacefully and I would appreciate it if we could keep things on a civil tone and s-can any future deragatory/insulting remarks.

I agree completely.

[M-TRAIN]

Shot some Practical Pistol today with two challenging stages requiring running uprange with a loaded gun.

There was some 'loose' gun direction with guys using the 'Eric Graufell' method but nothing too serious.

But there was a 'pants filling' moment when a guy from the start position turned around immediately after the beep and ran towards the 'Peanut Gallery' with his loaded gun still in his holster and then had to stop, turn and draw to engage some targets.

Mick

[JKSNIPER]

sslav,

Respectfully must disagree with you.

I know of multiple cases (Not in USPSA MAtches or IPSC matches but at ranges) where there have been A.D./N.D.s involving movement+firearms.

I'm not saying to make it 100% safe.

To do that we would have to have dry fire competitions. No fun at all.

And even then some yahoo would bring ammo and we'd have an A.D.

Someone mucho smarter than me once said "We can make it foolproof but the problem is the fools keep getting smarter."

I realize that no matter what we do there is still some amount of risk there.

My point is to MINIMIZE the risk without ruining the fun/competition.

Again the act of holstering or re-holstering is NOT the problem in the incidents you are alluding to.

The problem in those incidents was the :

A. Inattention of the shooter to what he/she was doing at that particular time.

B. T.F. on Trigger or inside T.G. A patently unsafe act unless you're on target and ready to fire.

The act of holstering had nothing to do with it.

Maybe thats the story the embarassed shooter threw around after he/she turned 10 shades of red.

"If I hadn't had to re-holster this wouldn't of happened!"

If the act of holstering is so dangerous then perhaps we should ban holsters and have everyone just walk around with their weapons in their hands for the entire match.

This way no one would ever have to dare to tempt the dreaded evil holstering demon.

The shooter was not paying enough attention to what he/she was doing when the "whoopsie" happened.

With respect there are MANY videos out there from members of this forum I have seen that show A.D./N.D.s as a result of drawing the pistol as well as some while re-loading.

The A.D./N.D. is not limited to the act of holstering.

Seen one the guy put the round out of the holster so fast I don't think the R.O. realized what happened.

The shooter stopped himself.

With the time issue:

If it were made mandantory to re-holster prior to turning and running uprange to continue engaging targets then the lost time would not be an issue (Thanks again for being a test subject BadChad!).

If everyone has to do it then theres no lost time.

Just trying to avoid having to listen to someone claim their car was shot by a round leaving the range or something worse happening.

I realize I'm swimming against the general direction of the tide here.

Not doing this to make guys mad or cause guys to have an anyuresm.

Just trying to enhance the safety aspect of the sport we all love to participate in.

Thats all bro.

JK

[Flexmoney]

JK,

Appreciate the perspective. Disagree with your conclusions.

We DQ a shooter for finger in the trigger. We DQ a shooter for muzzle violations. That part of the belt and suspenders attitude.

I believe we are far more likely to encounter gun handling issues doing actions of drawing, holsters, loading, unloading, and various types of gun handling. I believe that, historically, that is the case.

[sslav]

sslav,

Respectfully must disagree with you.

I know of multiple cases (Not in USPSA MAtches or IPSC matches but at ranges) where there have been A.D./N.D.s involving movement+firearms.

Respectfully, ADs can happen whenever there is any kind of gun handling is involved. Once again the two issues involved are:

1. The likelihood of an AD.

and

2. The impact (pun intended) of an AD.

If there is no finger in the trigger guard, then running uprange will never result in an AD. On the other hand even with the finger not in the trigger guard, you can still end up with AD when reholstering. For example you can have a drawstring on the bottom of the jacket catch the trigger for instance - and that is not a hypothetical.

If you do have a finger in the trigger guard and you are running uprange you may or may not have an AD - and the odds are still in your favor of not having one. If you have a finger in the trigger guard when reholstering you are near certain to have an AD.

So with proper finger placement - running uprange is less likely to result in an AD than reholstering. And with improper finger placement - running uprange is still less likely to result in an AD than reholstering.

Moving on to the consequences of an AD

If you are running uprange while pointing the gun downrange and your gun goes off the round will either strike the berm or it will go over the berm. Sending a round over the berm is certainly a bad thing - there is a chance that it will hit something. But that chance is fairly low. On the other hand if you have an AD while reholstering it is even money or better odds that that round is going into your body.

So consequences of an AD when running uprange are most likely less severe than of an AD while reholstering.

If the act of holstering is so dangerous then perhaps we should ban holsters and have everyone just walk around with their weapons in their hands for the entire match.

This way no one would ever have to dare to tempt the dreaded evil holstering demon.

I am sorry but there is an intellectually dishonest device utilized in the statement above. There is no equating holstering and re-holstering. These are two extremely dissimilar actions within the context of a competition. In the first case you are not on the clock. Your focus is entirely on the action you are performing - saely holstering your gun. The RO has no worries other than supervising that single action. How can you possibly equate that to re-holstering in the middle of a stage? Do you actually shoot in USPSA competitions?

Just trying to avoid having to listen to someone claim their car was shot by a round leaving the range or something worse happening.

Yes listening to someone screaming as you are trying to apply pressure to a gunshot wound in their thigh as it is gushing arterial blood is so much more appealing.

I realize I'm swimming against the general direction of the tide here.

Not doing this to make guys mad or cause guys to have an anyuresm.

Just trying to enhance the safety aspect of the sport we all love to participate in.

Given that many shooters - some of whom are very experienced feel differently, is it even remotely possible that your opinion is wrong?

[badchad]

There was some 'loose' gun direction with guys using the 'Eric Graufell' method but nothing too serious.

I feel I should point out that the way Eric and GG teach their class, there is no loose gun handling, and everything is taught with very precise movements. I commented to Eric that not only did he never break the 180; it looked like he never came close to it. When I asked, he responded to the effect that unless the course requires it, it's rare for him to point the gun more than 20-25 degrees from directly down range. He described IPSC as a dance where the gun points down range and we move around it. If we did one of the moves in a sloppy or unsafe manner they stopped us immediately and corrected it.

[JKSNIPER]

sslav,

Respectfully must disagree with you.

I know of multiple cases (Not in USPSA MAtches or IPSC matches but at ranges) where there have been A.D./N.D.s involving movement+firearms.

Respectfully, ADs can happen whenever there is any kind of gun handling is involved. Once again the two issues involved are:

1. The likelihood of an AD.

and

2. The impact (pun intended) of an AD.

If there is no finger in the trigger guard, then running uprange will never result in an AD. Must disagree with you.

Scenario: Finger out of trigger, shooter stumbles/falls and in doing so his hand grasps and the weapon goes bang. Happened for real and resulted in a fatality.

On the other hand even with the finger not in the trigger guard, you can still end up with AD when reholstering. For example you can have a drawstring on the bottom of the jacket catch the trigger for instance - and that is not a hypothetical.

I HOPE that shooters check their equipment (and clothing) out PRIOR to going to a match for little things like this.

Kind of like when the sarge makes you jump up and down prior to leaving the wire on patrol.

If you do have a finger in the trigger guard and you are running uprange you may or may not have an AD - and the odds are still in your favor of not having one.

While I agree that is by no means a certainty I don't know if I'd go as far as to say its not likely or the odds work in your favor.

If you have a finger in the trigger guard when reholstering you are near certain to have an AD.

Agree that in this case its pretty good odds we'll hear BANG! Followed by "Oh S-T!"

So with proper finger placement - running uprange is less likely to result in an AD than reholstering. And with improper finger placement - running uprange is still less likely to result in an AD than reholstering.

Moving on to the consequences of an AD

If you are running uprange while pointing the gun downrange and your gun goes off the round will either strike the berm or it will go over the berm. Sending a round over the berm is certainly a bad thing

NO.Its not a "bad thing" ...its a VERY BAD THING.[/size]- there is a chance that it will hit something. "]"Gravity....its not a recommendation.....its the LAW!" It WILL hit SOMETHING.

Will that something be something significant or will the strike on something insignificant be used and turned into something significant for that club/range ? Throw those dice in the air and see where they land.

Its a chance we don't need to take.

But that chance is fairly low. On the other hand if you have an AD while reholstering it is even money or better odds that that round is going into your body.

So consequences of an AD when running uprange are most likely less severe than of an AD while reholstering.

If the act of holstering is so dangerous then perhaps we should ban holsters and have everyone just walk around with their weapons in their hands for the entire match.

This way no one would ever have to dare to tempt the dreaded evil holstering demon.

Apologies to all for my wiseass & sarcastic remarks. I let my LACK of self control get the better of me. (lol)

I am sorry but there is an intellectually dishonest device utilized in the statement above. There is no equating holstering and re-holstering. These are two extremely dissimilar actions within the context of a competition. In the first case you are not on the clock. Your focus is entirely on the action you are performing - saely holstering your gun. The RO has no worries other than supervising that single action. How can you possibly equate that to re-holstering in the middle of a stage? Do you actually shoot in USPSA competitions?

Understand your differentiaton between the two actions.

I was thinking in "hot line" mode when I said "holstering/re-holstering" Apologies.

Yes I do shoot in comps USPSA and IPSC and I may suck but I only suck a lot.

Also for your consideration my department operates the range with a "hot line" policy.

That means you're expected to keep a loaded weapon on your person at all times and this of course makes holstering a loaded weapon necessary.

To this date we have not had an officer shoot themselves while holstering a loaded weapon.

Hold on Hoss! Let me cut you all off at the pass! I am NOT saying cops are better gun handlers.....believe me I'm NOT saying that. We have guys/ gals who can barely get a qualifying acore on a COF that most people here would laugh at. One of the range staff shot it blindfolded. He would get into position...check his alignment. Then blindfolded himself and shot that particular yard lines stage. At the end he had shot a qualifying score. Not saying we should allow blindfolded shooters just reporting what the range staff did (not me) and how easy our qual course is.

The knid of person shooting such a course and failing it or barely qualifying would probably be the kind to have an A.D./N.D. but as I said to date no such incidents. Also we DO have a stress COF after the regular qual course that officers shoot but even doing that..... no incidents of accidental shootings.

Just trying to avoid having to listen to someone claim their car was shot by a round leaving the range or something worse happening.

Yes listening to someone screaming as you are trying to apply pressure to a gunshot wound in their thigh as it is gushing arterial blood is so much more appealing.

BTDT ...got the t-shirt as well as Hep-B from the victim. The gift that just kept on giving. Thanks for the memories.

I realize I'm swimming against the general direction of the tide here.

Not doing this to make guys mad or cause guys to have an anyuresm.

Just trying to enhance the safety aspect of the sport we all love to participate in.

Given that many shooters - some of whom are very experienced feel differently, is it even remotely possible that your opinion is wrong?

Its possible the sun won't rise tomorrow and the stars will fall from the sky so I guess its possible I'm wrong too.

But IMHO I honestly don't think so.

I am not raising an arguement just to create a contrary opinion.

I honestly think that there should be a re-examinaton of the thought behind all this.

People here have argued that we should continue doing this because to this date it has not resulted in tragedy whereas the act of holstering during the COF HAS.

I agree that some shooters can get so psyched out or worked up or into their own heads that they don't concentrate on what they are doing ....RIGHT NOW! They also are the ones probably running with their fingers in the trigger etc but have just been lucky to this point.

I see the permitting of shooters to continue this action is a way of rolling the dice with safety.

Roll them enough and they WILL come up snake eyes one day.

It may be the very next match you shoot in or it may take 5 years. No crystal ball here.

Just looking to improve safety. Thats all.

[ChuckS]

Why all the Yelling?

[38supPat]

To be honest, theres nothing new here. It's no different than 6' walls, Cooper tunnels, rope bridges, doors, windows, or any other situation where we are rquired to hold, activate, move, duck, climb, throw or negotiate with a loaded gun in our hands. We've been doing this stuff for years, and years and years. It's not like this is something new that has come up and all the same rules apply. Keep the finger off the trigger, and keep the muzzle inside the 180.

Or you can shoot bullseye...lol

[mikegot38]

sslav,

Respectfully must disagree with you.

I know of multiple cases (Not in USPSA MAtches or IPSC matches but at ranges) where there have been A.D./N.D.s involving movement+firearms.

Respectfully, ADs can happen whenever there is any kind of gun handling is involved. Once again the two issues involved are:

1. The likelihood of an AD.

and

2. The impact (pun intended) of an AD.

If there is no finger in the trigger guard, then running uprange will never result in an AD. Must disagree with you.

Scenario: Finger out of trigger, shooter stumbles/falls and in doing so his hand grasps and the weapon goes bang. Happened for real and resulted in a fatality.

On the other hand even with the finger not in the trigger guard, you can still end up with AD when reholstering. For example you can have a drawstring on the bottom of the jacket catch the trigger for instance - and that is not a hypothetical.

I HOPE that shooters check their equipment (and clothing) out PRIOR to going to a match for little things like this.

Kind of like when the sarge makes you jump up and down prior to leaving the wire on patrol.

If you do have a finger in the trigger guard and you are running uprange you may or may not have an AD - and the odds are still in your favor of not having one.

While I agree that is by no means a certainty I don't know if I'd go as far as to say its not likely or the odds work in your favor.

If you have a finger in the trigger guard when reholstering you are near certain to have an AD.

Agree that in this case its pretty good odds we'll hear BANG! Followed by "Oh S-T!"

So with proper finger placement - running uprange is less likely to result in an AD than reholstering. And with improper finger placement - running uprange is still less likely to result in an AD than reholstering.

Moving on to the consequences of an AD

If you are running uprange while pointing the gun downrange and your gun goes off the round will either strike the berm or it will go over the berm. Sending a round over the berm is certainly a bad thing

NO.Its not a "bad thing" ...its a VERY BAD THING.[/size]- there is a chance that it will hit something. "]"Gravity....its not a recommendation.....its the LAW!" It WILL hit SOMETHING.

Will that something be something significant or will the strike on something insignificant be used and turned into something significant for that club/range ? Throw those dice in the air and see where they land.

Its a chance we don't need to take.

But that chance is fairly low. On the other hand if you have an AD while reholstering it is even money or better odds that that round is going into your body.

So consequences of an AD when running uprange are most likely less severe than of an AD while reholstering.

If the act of holstering is so dangerous then perhaps we should ban holsters and have everyone just walk around with their weapons in their hands for the entire match.

This way no one would ever have to dare to tempt the dreaded evil holstering demon.

Apologies to all for my wiseass & sarcastic remarks. I let my LACK of self control get the better of me. (lol)

I am sorry but there is an intellectually dishonest device utilized in the statement above. There is no equating holstering and re-holstering. These are two extremely dissimilar actions within the context of a competition. In the first case you are not on the clock. Your focus is entirely on the action you are performing - saely holstering your gun. The RO has no worries other than supervising that single action. How can you possibly equate that to re-holstering in the middle of a stage? Do you actually shoot in USPSA competitions?

Understand your differentiaton between the two actions.

I was thinking in "hot line" mode when I said "holstering/re-holstering" Apologies.

Yes I do shoot in comps USPSA and IPSC and I may suck but I only suck a lot.

Also for your consideration my department operates the range with a "hot line" policy.

That means you're expected to keep a loaded weapon on your person at all times and this of course makes holstering a loaded weapon necessary.

To this date we have not had an officer shoot themselves while holstering a loaded weapon.

Hold on Hoss! Let me cut you all off at the pass! I am NOT saying cops are better gun handlers.....believe me I'm NOT saying that. We have guys/ gals who can barely get a qualifying acore on a COF that most people here would laugh at. One of the range staff shot it blindfolded. He would get into position...check his alignment. Then blindfolded himself and shot that particular yard lines stage. At the end he had shot a qualifying score. Not saying we should allow blindfolded shooters just reporting what the range staff did (not me) and how easy our qual course is.

The knid of person shooting such a course and failing it or barely qualifying would probably be the kind to have an A.D./N.D. but as I said to date no such incidents. Also we DO have a stress COF after the regular qual course that officers shoot but even doing that..... no incidents of accidental shootings.

Just trying to avoid having to listen to someone claim their car was shot by a round leaving the range or something worse happening.

Yes listening to someone screaming as you are trying to apply pressure to a gunshot wound in their thigh as it is gushing arterial blood is so much more appealing.

BTDT ...got the t-shirt as well as Hep-B from the victim. The gift that just kept on giving. Thanks for the memories.

I realize I'm swimming against the general direction of the tide here.

Not doing this to make guys mad or cause guys to have an anyuresm.

Just trying to enhance the safety aspect of the sport we all love to participate in.

Given that many shooters - some of whom are very experienced feel differently, is it even remotely possible that your opinion is wrong?

Its possible the sun won't rise tomorrow and the stars will fall from the sky so I guess its possible I'm wrong too.

But IMHO I honestly don't think so.

I am not raising an arguement just to create a contrary opinion.

I honestly think that there should be a re-examinaton of the thought behind all this.

People here have argued that we should continue doing this because to this date it has not resulted in tragedy whereas the act of holstering during the COF HAS.

I agree that some shooters can get so psyched out or worked up or into their own heads that they don't concentrate on what they are doing ....RIGHT NOW! They also are the ones probably running with their fingers in the trigger etc but have just been lucky to this point.

I see the permitting of shooters to continue this action is a way of rolling the dice with safety.

Roll them enough and they WILL come up snake eyes one day.

It may be the very next match you shoot in or it may take 5 years. No crystal ball here.

Just looking to improve safety. Thats all.

Why are you shouting at everyone?

Flex:

I have been watching this tread with great interest. It is now getting out of hand. Do you think it is time to lock this thread?

Mike Gottlieb

Edited February 9, 2009 by mikegot38

[Flexmoney]

Yep.

As Pat said, nothing new here. The original question has been answered long ago. I was cool with keeping it open for a the exchange of various perspectives. But, we aren't here to win arguments.

CLOSED.