Larue Targets

[bigbrowndog]

Ken is right, measure it at the muzzle, and apparently Sterling will loan you his so long as you use it at the muzzle.

Trapr

[Mike P]

Heck, I'm subject to hit the skyscreens with a pistol at ten feet, much less 400yds.

I am interested to see though how an actual minor load affects a flasher and a Larue at 350 to 400yds. I will try to do a little experimenting after this next big match, that is if my scope has enough elevation.

It may be that you need a target strong enough to withstand HM .308s and weak enough to activate with Ralphy's Red Ryder.

[RiggerJJ]

Another thing to consider for USPSA m/g is there is no minimum caliber in rifle...just a minimum power factor.

A good precision rifle with a good scope and an RO that knows how to use it (with near minimum PF ammo) would do the deed just fine.

jj

Edited November 28, 2009 by RiggerJJ

[smokshwn]

Earl, it doesn't matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is on the minor PF floor(minimum), for USPSA matches, and maybe xm193 for the other matches, since there is no PF.

I do think a bolt gun with calibrated ammo is the way to go, to verify the target is set properly.

Trapr

Actually bullet weight does matter. PF can be consisten (150) yet yield quite a difference in delivered energy to the target depending opon bullet weight. Therefore it would be best if the calibration is done with the lightest bullet able to make PF out of the calibration gun. This would ensure that the target was set so that the lowest energy round making PF would take it down.

[Bryan 45]

Use 55g WOLF in a 16" carbine.

Problem solved. If the WOLF will knock it down, any competitors loads will.

[Schutzenmeister]

Earl, it doesn't matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is on the minor PF floor(minimum), for USPSA matches, and maybe xm193 for the other matches, since there is no PF.

I do think a bolt gun with calibrated ammo is the way to go, to verify the target is set properly.

Trapr

Any reason not to just use the 9mm that is used for every other steel target?

Actually, yes ... The USPSA Rifle Rules, Appendix C1 spell out the calibration procedures for rifle targets. You must use a rifle. The calibration rifle and ammo must have a 150 PF (+/- 5%). Just like HG, the initial calibration must be from the furtherest distance in the CoF to the target. Just like HG, any challenge must be shot from as close to where the shooter shot it as possible.

The problem is that the LaRue target has no specified calibration zone for the test. Hence it is more like a falling plate in that respect. ANY hit which does not knock it over is an automatic REF. (Rifle 4.3.1.6.)

This is what led to the problem at the recent MG Nationals.

[outerlimits]

Earl, it doesn't matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is on the minor PF floor(minimum), for USPSA matches, and maybe xm193 for the other matches, since there is no PF.

I do think a bolt gun with calibrated ammo is the way to go, to verify the target is set properly.

Trapr

Any reason not to just use the 9mm that is used for every other steel target?

Actually, yes ... The USPSA Rifle Rules, Appendix C1 spell out the calibration procedures for rifle targets. You must use a rifle. The calibration rifle and ammo must have a 150 PF (+/- 5%). Just like HG, the initial calibration must be from the furtherest distance in the CoF to the target. Just like HG, any challenge must be shot from as close to where the shooter shot it as possible.

The problem is that the LaRue target has no specified calibration zone for the test. Hence it is more like a falling plate in that respect. ANY hit which does not knock it over is an automatic REF. (Rifle 4.3.1.6.)

This is what led to the problem at the recent MG Nationals.

what we were told at the nationals was that uspsa considered the larue to be a plate, not a popper...therefore, no way to calibrate them.

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

The problem is that the LaRue target has no specified calibration zone for the test. Hence it is more like a falling plate in that respect. ANY hit which does not knock it over is an automatic REF. (Rifle 4.3.1.6.)

This is what led to the problem at the recent MG Nationals.

what we were told at the nationals was that uspsa considered the larue to be a plate, not a popper...therefore, no way to calibrate them.

??? I thought that's what I just said ... by way of the rule book ...

[ken hebert]

shame they weren't playing by the rule book.... its amazing how many of us were repeatedly hitting the 4" tall base plate and not the 18" tall strike zone...

[outerlimits]

shame they weren't playing by the rule book.... its amazing how many of us were repeatedly hitting the 4" tall base plate and not the 18" tall strike zone...

i know-funny though on stage 2, i kept hitting that same 4" base and they went down every time. go figure...

[dmshozer1]

Use 55g WOLF in a 16" carbine.

Problem solved. If the WOLF will knock it down, any competitors loads will.

Not true. Most Wolf will make Power factor out of 18, 20 and most 16 inch barrels!

Most of the blaster rds. I pick up after the unload and show clear when I RO don't

even come close to the power factor. Just for fun, I chrono them.CHEATERS!!

[outerlimits]

Use 55g WOLF in a 16" carbine.

Problem solved. If the WOLF will knock it down, any competitors loads will.

Not true. Most Wolf will make Power factor out of 18, 20 and most 16 inch barrels!

Most of the blaster rds. I pick up after the unload and show clear when I RO don't

even come close to the power factor. Just for fun, I chrono them.CHEATERS!!

shooting unknown unload and show clear rounds is bad juju.

[dmshozer1]

Use 55g WOLF in a 16" carbine.

Problem solved. If the WOLF will knock it down, any competitors loads will.

Not true. Most Wolf will make Power factor out of 18, 20 and most 16 inch barrels!

Most of the blaster rds. I pick up after the unload and show clear when I RO don't

even come close to the power factor. Just for fun, I chrono them.CHEATERS!!

shooting unknown unload and show clear rounds is bad juju.

I absolutely agree with you Outerlimits, but like the punk in Dirty Harry, I just gots to know!

By the way, I enjoy reading your posts. Yours are some of the few that I pay attention to.

[dmshozer1]

Earl, it doesn't matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is on the minor PF floor(minimum), for USPSA matches, and maybe xm193 for the other matches, since there is no PF.

I do think a bolt gun with calibrated ammo is the way to go, to verify the target is set properly.

Trapr

Any reason not to just use the 9mm that is used for every other steel target?

Actually, yes ... The USPSA Rifle Rules, Appendix C1 spell out the calibration procedures for rifle targets. You must use a rifle. The calibration rifle and ammo must have a 150 PF (+/- 5%). Just like HG, the initial calibration must be from the furtherest distance in the CoF to the target. Just like HG, any challenge must be shot from as close to where the shooter shot it as possible.

The problem is that the LaRue target has no specified calibration zone for the test. Hence it is more like a falling plate in that respect. ANY hit which does not knock it over is an automatic REF. (Rifle 4.3.1.6.)

This is what led to the problem at the recent MG Nationals

what we were told at the nationals was that uspsa considered the larue to be a plate, not a popper...therefore, no way to calibrate them.

The first time I shot LaRue targets, I heard they were hard to knock down at distance with a 55gr. load unless it was loaded hot. This was about five years ago. I called the LaRue shop. I was told that a sensor in the target could be set so that any impact, any where on the face of the target would put it down.

From time to time, shooting 3100 ft. a sec. 55gr. loads, I have hit them and they would not go down. Does this mean they were not set right?

[Blockhead]

There is a small set screw on the target frame that determines how far forward the plate sets when reset similar to the set stop on a popper or some plate racks. After the learning experiance at last year's MG Nat's I'd suggest the following:

1) Set the target on a level plywood base (staked down) base with holes predrilled to accept the cast "feet" that extend from the bottom of the target frame. If a target goes down the replacement is easy and quick.

2) Put a rail road tie in front of the target base prevent confusion when people hear hits to metal but don't see the target going down. I also like the idea of painting the wood a different color than the target.

3) MD's, adjust and shoot all long range targets yourself. Outer Limits pointed out how Stage 2 ran with no problems (with the targets). IMHO, that was because the CRO took the time to carefully adjust every target. I firmly believe that if I had taken the time to shoot every target prior to the match the problem would not have happened.

I've heard a rumor that the rules may be revised to clear this up for 2010.

I wonder if this is another good reason for having staff shoot the match before the competitors?? A good topic for another thread.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Blockhead

[ken hebert]

I wonder if this is another good reason for having staff shoot the match before the competitors?? A good topic for another thread.

It would ensure that the staff is multi-gunners...

[A well Earled machine]

I wonder if this is another good reason for having staff shoot the match before the competitors?? A good topic for another thread.

It would ensure that the staff is multi-gunners...

I agree. However it may be difficult to run the staff [those who want to] through all the stages. MD's should pick the stages that need to be "proofed", make sure they are set up first and then add a few more stages to round out the day. We staff / shooters can use the stage results to get an idea of how we would have done compared to the competitors after the match is over. Trying to tune stages AND shoot them all in one day turns into a waist of ammo more offten than not.

My $.02 worth

EJ

P.S. A MG Staff Match would be a cool thread!

[ken hebert]

"9.2 Steel Calibration and Challenges

9.2.1 All reactive steel targets used in the match will be calibrated before

shooting begins, to ensure steel falls using the following standard

ammunition:

9.2.1.1 All pistol steel targets will be checked with 9mm ammunition

9.2.1.2 All shotgun steel targets will be checked with a 21" cylinder

bore 12 ga. Shotgun, using 11/8 2 3/4 dram 7 1/2 shot

9.2.1.3 All steel rifle targets will be checked with a 16" barrel A2 firing

55 grain Federal ammunition.

9.2.2 During the match, all challenged steel targets will be shot by the

Range Master from within the designated shooting area, not necessarily from

the position the shooter attempted."

taken from the Larue rules... Hopefully to be applied to USPSA multigun matches...

[A well Earled machine]

9.2.1.3 All steel rifle targets will be checked with a 16" barrel A2 firing

55 grain Federal ammunition.

taken from the Larue rules... Hopefully to be applied to USPSA multigun matches...

You might be there awhile with a 16" barrel. I think a HB bolt w/ a good optic is still the way to go. Kind of a "One Shot, One Kill" type of deal. I haven't the data to support it but I understand a .223 makes as much speed as it can in 14"-16" - the extra barrel length just adds accuracy.

EJ

Edited January 12, 2010 by A well Earled machine

[ken hebert]

Ummm... Nope. There are a whole pile of us making those hits with 16", 18" and 20" AR's on the clock with irons, red dots, and low power magnification optics. I see no need to use a long tube bolt gun. Calibrate for what is going to be used in the match. In fact, calibrate for the rifle most likely to make the lowest power factor in the match. As was stated earlier this would probably be a 16" carbine running Wolf 55gn.

[smokshwn]

9.2.1.3 All steel rifle targets will be checked with a 16" barrel A2 firing

55 grain Federal ammunition.

taken from the Larue rules... Hopefully to be applied to USPSA multigun matches...

You might be there awhile with a 16" barrel. I think a HB bolt w/ a good optic is still the way to go. Kind of a "One Shot, One Kill" type of deal. I haven't the data to support it but I understand a .223 makes as much speed as it can in 14"-16" - the extra barrel length just adds accuracy.

EJ

Earl,

Barrel length does not add accuracy. Increased sight radius adds accuracy. A barrel at any given length is as mechanically accurate as the quality of its manufacturing, chambering, and rifling will allow. The point that proves this is that many Benchrest shooters shoot the shortes barrel they can to get the velocity they want. For any given barrel profile a shorter barrel is stiffer, vibrates less and is therefor more accurate.

The idea that a barrel is done making speed at a given length is also a much hyped internet myth. If your example above were true, then that would mean a 16" barrel would be faster than a 20' or 24" barrel because as soom as a bullet is done "making speed" it would begin to slow down. Yet we know that for any given load, the 20" barrel will produce a higher velocity. It would take many many extra feet of barrel before the expanding gases would quit accelerating the bullet.

What we are dealing with when we discuss activating steel targets at distance is the amount of delivered energy it takes to activate them. Power factor does not help us due to the fact that for any given PF a lighter bullet will not deliver as much energy as a heavier bullet.

The correct change for the rules (all rules outlaw and uspsa, multigun, shotgun and pistol) would be to calibrate the steel using a consistent level of energy delivered to make them activate.

You can keep PF if you like to chrono ammo but if steel was calibrated to an energy level it would still maintain the need for POWER in our sport.

[jmorris]

Does anyone know what method is used to calibrate the larue? I had problems with low hits with 9mm minor not droping the one I built and came up with this adjustment.