zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I am happy to listen to scientific/mathmatical lines of thinking, but the OPINIONS that have been posted have had no basis. I'll prove your position for you. I think that DP40's numbers show that...going back 3 inches on the belt does cost time. How much time? It is safe to assume that there are about 3 inches between each mag pouch on his belt. The time difference between reload #1 and reload #2 is 0.03 seconds. And, the time difference between reload #2 and reload #3 is 0.03 seconds. 84 draw.82 load (1st pouch) .84 load (2nd pouch) .87 load (3rd pouch) Therefore, the distance traveled cost 0.03 seconds. I ran that difference on our good friend, El Prez. Given a 10hf (60 points in 6 seconds) the extra reload time converts that 10hf run into a 9.95hf run (60 points in 6.03 seconds). You are looking at a difference of about 0.46 of a percentage. To give you the benefit of doubt, let's round that to half a percent That proves you point. You are correct. The distance to the mag does matter. USPSA should adjust the HHF's in Single Stack to be 99.5% of Limited. BTW, I just checked, the HHF's for CM99-11 are the same for Limited and Limited 10, so the 99.5% is an improvement over what we SS'ers are getting now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 With that being said, if equpiment has no merit in the speed/accuracy at which we shoot then why do we have different HHF for the divisions? Why indeed !!?!! Actually, it very well may make a difference in how you shoot at a level lower than 100%. But, this isn't an issue of how of "how we shoot". Th issue is what it takes to shoot a 100% performance. That 100% performance is the measuring stick. So, if my fobus holster hangs up on the draw...that has absolutely no bearing on what the 100% score on the classifier is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 With that being said, if equpiment has no merit in the speed/accuracy at which we shoot then why do we have different HHF for the divisions? How can anyone argue that a comped gun with an optic sight does not have a bearing on the a HHF related to other divisions???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 With that being said, if equpiment has no merit in the speed/accuracy at which we shoot then why do we have different HHF for the divisions? How can anyone argue that a comped gun with an optic sight does not have a bearing on the a HHF related to other divisions???????? Because it seems to some equipment doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 BTW, I just checked, the HHF's for CM99-11 are the same for Limited and Limited 10, so the 99.5% is an improvement over what we SS'ers are getting now I've probably posted this a zillion times now. Pay attention this go-around!! On High Hit Factors * The Limited-10 classifiers area EXACTLY the same as those in Limited. In fact...ALL divisions are based off of Limited, except for Open. I'm not sure where you guys are coming from with the "Single-Stack is based on L-10" stuff. Other than that is what it says on the classifier calculator. (On the classifier calculator...you all realize that was my baby, right? I had the idea for that and Nick had the computer expertise to make it happen. I provided him with the know-how on figuring out the HHF's.) Not that it matters... Limited = Limited-10 = Single-Stack = Production (95%) = Revolver (90%) Except for Open division...All the other division's HHF are derivatives of Limited*. * I don't know if all of that holds true for the newer classifiers that have been added. I know that some of them are based on being shot at Majors. ("Can You Count" for instance is based on Max's run in Open division...) So, initially...all the other divisions were in the same boat. They didn't...and in most cases still don't...have HHF of their very own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 OK, so I am asking then... Limited, Limited 10 and SS share the same HHF's? Where as Production is 95% of the above and Revolver 90% of the above? Production being 95% makes sense for the minor scoring, Revo makes sense for the 6 round limits. I was under the impression that as a Division "aged", meaning enough time pasted that the could create their own HHF's based on enough data that the Divisions then broke off of the Limited. Is this not the case???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) OK, so I am asking then...Limited, Limited 10 and SS share the same HHF's? Where as Production is 95% of the above and Revolver 90% of the above? Yes, that was the start of it. I was under the impression that as a Division "aged", meaning enough time pasted that the could create their own HHF's based on enough data that the Divisions then broke off of the Limited. Is this not the case???? Indeed, that should be the case. And, it is in some instances. But, the HHF's...regardless of division...don't seem to get updated with any regularity. You saw that when you checked El Prez (99-11). The HHF for Limited and Limited-10 are still the same. And, Production is still at 95%. Edited December 17, 2008 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Production being 95% makes sense for the minor scoring. Well, no...not really. Minor isn't really a factor at the HHF level. Since we are talking about 100% runs, then we need to realize that the best shooters are fast AND shooting Alphas. In Production...that is even more of the case, because Minor scoring really kills a run with non-Alpha hits. So, HHF-type runs in Production will absolutely require strong points. (absolutely may be a strong word, but...) That 5% buffer was a gift for production shooters, in my opinion. At least at the upper levels. Rev makes sense for the 6 round limits. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Back before we had some of the newer classifier I had printed out the classifier book and put together a 3-ring binder. (This was before the PDF was available on the web and I wasn't yet a Section Coordinator and didn't have a hard copy of my own.) There was something like 66 classifiers then. I went through my classifier book and made note of which classifiers were Revolver friendly, which were Revolver neutral, and which ones really bent the Revolver shooter over. There was quite a mix. In some cases 90% was a total gift (no reload required). In other cases, 90% wasn't near enough because a 6-gunner would have to do two extra reloads...while standing still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 The L-10 shooters got a taste too. On classifiers like Times Two, L-10 shooter have to do a reload whereas limited shooters don't...yet they have the same HHF. So, it's not just the new-kids-on-the-block Single-Stack division shooters... As Gunnery Sergeant Hartman would say..."we are all equally worthless". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Thanks for clearing that up Flex. I had no idea that Lim, L10 and SS were all sharing the same HHF's. So what is it going to take before we can all see a day when the divisions are "pure" and HHF's were all created with gear that is compliant with the division rules. How many classifiers is enough? The USPSA web site shows almost 120,000 classifiers on file for L10 There are roughly 92,000 for Production. That seems like a big enough sampling to me. Edited December 18, 2008 by 38superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 How many classifiers is enough?The USPSA web site shows almost 120,000 classifiers on file for L10 There are roughly 92,000 for Production. That seems like a big enough sampling to me. The sample size has nothing to do with it, since USPSA can't guarantee that the classifiers were set correctly at the various clubs. They also can't guarantee that the classifiers were shot with the "just another stage in the match" approach that is desired to set a true HHF, not one that is artificially low or high because of a "zero or hero" mentality...... Basically --- it will take time, until most of the 99 series are mothballed and we get more classifiers (that have been shot at Nats/Area Matches) into the classifier book.... Of course it's unlikely that something like el Presidente will ever get mothballed; however we've lost ~20 or so of the 99 series since I started the game in 2001..... Of the 28 non 99 series classifiers, I've shot at least nine at Area and Nationals matches between 2002 and 2007. (I can only assume that I've either forgotten some of the others, or that they were shot at major matches I didn't attend....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Limited = Limited-10 = Single-Stack = Production (95%) = Revolver (90%) I had no idea this is how it worked. As time has allowed, I have used the Ohio HHF Calculator to back calculate the HHF for each classifier stage so that I could bring a print out to every match. I just did some quick calculations to find the ratios between HHFs for Production vs. Limited and Limited 10 vs Limited. Here are the results without posts the HHFs: Classifier #: P/L - L10/L CM 08-01: 0.95 - 0.98 CM 08-02: 0.94 - 0.96 CM 08-03: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 08-04: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 08-05: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 08-06: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 06-01: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 06-02: 0.78 - 0.90 CM 06-03: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 06-04: 0.96 - 1.04 CM 06-05: 0.91 - 1.00 CM 06-06: 0.93 - 1.00 CM 06-07: 1.08 - 1.00 CM 06-08: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 06-09: 0.97 - 1.00 CM 06-10: 0.84 - 1.04 CM 03-02: 0.76 - 0.95 CM 03-03: 0.85 - 0.95 CM 03-04: 0.85 - 0.95 CM 03-05: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-07: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-08: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-09: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-10: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-11: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-12: 0.85 - 0.86 CM 03-14: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 03-18: 0.89 - 1.00 CM 99-02: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-06: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-07: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-08: 0.87 - 1.00 CM 99-09: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-10: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-11: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-12: 0.90 - 1.00 CM 99-13: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-14: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 99-16: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-19: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-21: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-22: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-23: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-24: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-27: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-28: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-33: 0.90 - 0.95 CM 99-34: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-36: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-39: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-40: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 99-41: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-42: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-43: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-45: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-46: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-47: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-48: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-50: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-51: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-52: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-53: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-55: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-56: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-57: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-58: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-59: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-60: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-61: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-62: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-63: 0.95 - 1.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Monkeying around with Riverdale Standards (03-07) on the Classifier Calculator reveals that Limited, L10, and SS share the same HHF. Productions is approximately 1.3 points lower, Revolver trails production by about another 1.3 points..... Since Production stands at ~ 85% of the Limited HHF, and Revolver at ~69% of the Limited HHF, those are most likely valid numbers..... 03-07 was the short stage submitted for classifier consideration at the 2002 Area 8 Factory Gun (Old Bridge, NJ) and 2002 Area 8 Race Gun (Topton, PA) matches..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Limited = Limited-10 = Single-Stack = Production (95%) = Revolver (90%) I had no idea this is how it worked. As time has allowed, I have used the Ohio HHF Calculator to back calculate the HHF for each classifier stage so that I could bring a print out to every match. I just did some quick calculations to find the ratios between HHFs for Production vs. Limited and Limited 10 vs Limited. Here are the results without posts the HHFs: Classifier #: P/L - L10/L CM 08-01: 0.95 - 0.98 CM 08-02: 0.94 - 0.96 CM 08-03: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 08-04: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 08-05: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 08-06: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 06-01: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 06-02: 0.78 - 0.90 CM 06-03: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 06-04: 0.96 - 1.04 CM 06-05: 0.91 - 1.00 CM 06-06: 0.93 - 1.00 CM 06-07: 1.08 - 1.00 CM 06-08: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 06-09: 0.97 - 1.00 CM 06-10: 0.84 - 1.04 CM 03-02: 0.76 - 0.95 CM 03-03: 0.85 - 0.95 CM 03-04: 0.85 - 0.95 CM 03-05: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-07: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-08: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-09: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-10: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-11: 0.85 - 1.00 CM 03-12: 0.85 - 0.86 CM 03-14: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 03-18: 0.89 - 1.00 CM 99-02: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-06: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-07: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-08: 0.87 - 1.00 CM 99-09: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-10: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-11: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-12: 0.90 - 1.00 CM 99-13: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-14: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 99-16: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-19: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-21: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-22: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-23: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-24: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-27: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-28: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-33: 0.90 - 0.95 CM 99-34: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-36: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-39: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-40: 1.00 - 1.00 CM 99-41: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-42: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-43: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-45: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-46: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-47: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-48: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-50: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-51: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-52: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-53: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-55: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-56: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-57: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-58: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-59: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-60: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-61: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-62: 0.95 - 1.00 CM 99-63: 0.95 - 1.00 What do all those numbers mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) What do all those numbers mean? I'm using Limited as the baseline because everything is based off of it. So the first column is the classifier number. The second column, P/L, is the Production HHF divided by the Limited HHF. The third column, L10/L, is the Limited 10 HHF divided by the Limited HHF. Look at the CM 08-04 line. Production is indeed 95% of Limited and Limited 10 is equal to Limited. edited to add: the " - " is used a delimiter. otherwise the numbers kind of piled up together making it really difficult to read. Edited December 18, 2008 by HuskySig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 There are a couple of oddities that pop up when looking at the data. The first is the HHF for CM 06-07 is higher for Production than it is for Limited. The other two oddities are CM 06-04 and CM 06-10 where the HHF for Limited 10 is higher than it is for Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 I'm sorry, I must be an idiot, I still don't understand. HHF / HHF = what? the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 I'm sorry, I must be an idiot, I still don't understand.HHF / HHF = what? the difference? I was curious to see just how many of the Production classifer HHF were truely 95% of the Limited HHFs. Same with Limited 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 There are a couple of oddities that pop up when looking at the data.The first is the HHF for CM 06-07 is higher for Production than it is for Limited. The other two oddities are CM 06-04 and CM 06-10 where the HHF for Limited 10 is higher than it is for Limited. Not an oddity at all --- if you know where the HHFs come from for this classifier. CM 06-07 was Stage 8 at the 2004 US Handgun Nationals. The HHFs were set by the stage winners at that match --- something easily confirmed by running them through the classifier calculator. (Hint: if you punch in the entire HF, you'll get the 100% or better notation, drop the last digit and you'll get a 99.xx %, that virtually assures that they're using the stage results.) Trivia note: Forum member Matt Mink set the HHF in production, Taran Butler did it in Limited, Mike Burrell in L10..... CM06-10 was Stage 8 at the 2005 US Handgun Nationals (Both Matches) and the highest HHF was set in L10, higher even than Open (set by Jake Divita)..... That's how we get those anomalies --- because these classifiers were shot as actual match stages first.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Regarding HuskySig's chart: ...I still don't understand. What that means is...when you see a nice round number like 0.95 or 1.00 ...classifiers in those divisions (Production and Limited-10) have HHF's that are preset as a certain percentage of Limited division. They are not set by shooting them independently in those divisions. Interestingly...the 03-series of classifiers seems to have the Production HHF's set at only 85% of Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I am not up on the new series of classifiers, but I shot a lot of the old CM 99 classifiers with a single stack. The newer classifiers may or may not have reasonable high hit factors, but the older series certainly are not out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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