Plaxico how did he shoot himself ?

[el pres]

Dirty Chamber..

Unloaded gun, not concealed on person (in plain view). gun registered to person carrying it, no prior convictions.. no problem.. Some will argue that if the ammo is in close proximity and readily accessible it could be construed as loaded.

If the gun is carried in public not concealed but loaded..Misdemeanor..

Get caught carrying a switch blade, butterfly knife and a host of other weapons defined in section PC 12020, (the section somoene else mentioned)..is a Felony... go figure

Insert shaking head icon here _ _ _ !! But we are talking about "concealed" ??

SacLawMan, I'm a displaced Kalifornian through and through, raised my whole life in SoCal but now live in

a much more unrestricted place, class 3 state. I remember going up to the Eastern Sierra and seeing old Indian cowboy

guys in Bishop carring open peacemakers. I believe the law is still on the books but you could never get away with it

in let's say DT LA ... You guys would have to be all over it for causing a disturbance and different public safety issues.

Back to the subject of concealed. I remember a case when I still lived there of a guy who was carrying concealed (illegaly)

clean record, etc.. I dont remember the details but a situation developed with known gang members, guns, knifes, bats, and he used his "illegal" weapon in justifiable deadly force to defend himself and/or others. I dont know the outcome but he was prosecuted to an extent and the famillies of the gang members filed wrongful death suits because he was carrying an illegal weapon. Does that sound right in as what would happen in a case like this today ??

I would like to say more in my opinion of what California considers the rights of violent criminals to conduct business but that would close the tread...

Now back to this thread, in a case like the one above, where the guy presumably had a clean record and judging by the outcome of the incident, he really "needed" to be carrying concealed to protect his life and limb yet the state went against him, the vehicle is set for the appeals process to the top..

Now if an individual was caught carrying concealed in a misdemeanor state, clean record, etc., with no incident to justify

why he needed to be carrying a loaded weapon other then their own opinion of the threat level in the area, would'nt the anti-gun state judge just laugh at him, tell him,"that's why we have Police, Sir", and dismiss his case with a healthy fine ??

Either way your screwed !!

[Flexmoney]

He brought an illegally posessed weapon into a crowded club where he commenced to have an accidental discharge (fortunately) into his own leg.

What?

Where do you get that he did that? I don't know, but from the reports given so far that is NOT the case at all.

What I understand to have happened is that he approached the club, and was likely wanded by security before entering. So, he did not enter a crowded club.

Apparently...once taken aside to a secluded area (no crowd). He experienced and AD...while handling his gun.

As I mentioned before...AD's happen when guns are handled. It's one certain lesson that we can take away from this. And, we should all review how of clubs (running COLD matches) handle hot guns coming onto the range.

He could have just as easily shot and killed/injured someone else.

That is a straw man argument. Lets not play on the fears of the worst case scenario. If we did, we'd likely not have ranges to shoot on.

[Flexmoney]

I think the meat and potatoes here is the illegal possession of a handgun.

If you don't mind...lets go on a make-believe journey for a second.

The year is 2025 and government as we know it is no more. Yet...society marches on.

You are young, athletic, well-known, and have some gold (paper money is gone) burning a hole in your pocket. You head out to do what every young man throughout history has done...pursue male bonding and female companionship.

Your personal protection is on you. The government isn't there for you.

What do you do?

Instead of my make-believe future, go back in time. Consider it is a gold rush town in the 'wild west'.

What would a prudent person do?

The law that was broken here is a local law. Which, would seem to be unconstitutional on a few levels. We have a right to self-defense (God given?). We have a right to Keep and Bear Arms (2nd A). We have a rights to individual freedoms (Bill of Rights, which the 14th says applies to States). And we have Due Process (5th and 14th ?)...

Does the (proposed) punishment fit the crime?

Here we have an otherwise law abiding citizen, who would prudently have reason to ensure his personal protection, and would have no expectation of that personal protection from government...being charged in manner which would deprive him from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, for exercising his right to Keep and Bear Arms.

We get that he broke the NYC law. The question is...is the NYC law infringing on the Bill of Rights.

New York was the only state that asked Congress to add "due process" language to the U.S. Constitution. New York ratified the U.S. Constitution and proposed the following amendment in 1788: "[N]o Person ought to be taken imprisoned or disseised of his freehold, or be exiled or deprived of his Privileges, Franchises, Life, Liberty or Property but by due process of Law." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

[tightloop]

I think the meat and potatoes here is the illegal possession of a handgun.

If you don't mind...lets go on a make-believe journey for a second.

The year is 2025 and government as we know it is no more. Yet...society marches on.

You are young, athletic, well-known, and have some gold (paper money is gone) burning a hole in your pocket. You head out to do what every young man throughout history has done...pursue male bonding and female companionship.

Your personal protection is on you. The government isn't there for you.

What do you do?

Instead of my make-believe future, go back in time. Consider it is a gold rush town in the 'wild west'.

What would a prudent person do?

The law that was broken here is a local law. Which, would seem to be unconstitutional on a few levels. We have a right to self-defense (God given?). We have a right to Keep and Bear Arms (2nd A). We have a rights to individual freedoms (Bill of Rights, which the 14th says applies to States). And we have Due Process (5th and 14th ?)...

Does the (proposed) punishment fit the crime?

Here we have an otherwise law abiding citizen, who would prudently have reason to ensure his personal protection, and would have no expectation of that personal protection from government...being charged in manner which would deprive him from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, for exercising his right to Keep and Bear Arms.

We get that he broke the NYC law. The question is...is the NYC law infringing on the Bill of Rights.

New York was the only state that asked Congress to add "due process" language to the U.S. Constitution. New York ratified the U.S. Constitution and proposed the following amendment in 1788: "[N]o Person ought to be taken imprisoned or disseised of his freehold, or be exiled or deprived of his Privileges, Franchises, Life, Liberty or Property but by due process of Law." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

Nope it is still 2008 and you can't click your ruby slippers to make it different...

bottom line is this: 1. the guy is really stupid 2. he intentionally broke the law carrying the pistol into the club 3. good or bad it is still the law 4. he should pay society for his breaking the law 5. the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with this

The punishment he gets for breaking the law is contingent on his lawyers and the prosecutors..and the deal they agree upon.

[Flexmoney]

We had a shooter (member of this forum) go to NY for work. He was going to be hotel bound for a bit and took his Brazos limited gun along for dry-fire in the evenings. On his return trip, the declared his gun at the ticket counter at a NYC airport.

He was arrested.

What the heck does he "owe" to society?

[High Lord Gomer]

I don't have a problem with him carrying, if he hadn't had a ND.

Wasn't our current government formed by people that chose to break the laws of the previous government because they believed them to be wrong?

If, in the not too distant future, our current government decides that we should not be armed, will you turn in all of your guns, knives, and baseball bats because "it's the law"?

Edited December 5, 2008 by High Lord Gomer

[bbbean]

[quote name='Flexmoney' post='867840' date='Dec 5 2008, 06:03 AM'

bottom line is this: 1. the guy is really stupid 2. he intentionally broke the law carrying the pistol into the club 3. good or bad it is still the law 4. he should pay society for his breaking the law 5. the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with this

The punishment he gets for breaking the law is contingent on his lawyers and the prosecutors..and the deal they agree upon.

1 isn't a crime. 2 isn't in dispute, nor is 3.

The question in my mind, and the minds of many, is just how much he owes society. I have no problem with punishment that fits the crime, but prison time, millions in fines, and the loss of a career are WAY out of proportion to what he did.

The 2nd amendment comes into play when we consider whether this should be a crime in the first place. While we may not have the right to pick and choose which laws we obey, we certainly have the right to question the laws themselves.

[bbbean]

We had a shooter (member of this forum) go to NY for work. He was going to be hotel bound for a bit and took his Brazos limited gun along for dry-fire in the evenings. On his return trip, the declared his gun at the ticket counter at a NYC airport.

He was arrested.

What the heck does he "owe" to society?

Double ouch! Arrested for dry firing AND losing a sweet custom gun? Thats cruel and unusual!

[chp5]

Good post Flex.

If NY and Plexico can't come to a deal on the charges, then at least he has the financial ability to fight the charges on all fronts. Time will tell.

If he does, I wonder if the NRA will help in the defense. They might - or might think he is not a good public figure to get behind.

It could be an opportunity to increase NRA exposure and minority membership - which could be a very good thing. It think many minorities view the NRA as the National Redneck Association. That would be a good thing to change - especially given the history of laws that unfairly target minorities and gun ownership.

[Anubis]

We had a shooter (member of this forum) go to NY for work. He was going to be hotel bound for a bit and took his Brazos limited gun along for dry-fire in the evenings. On his return trip, the declared his gun at the ticket counter at a NYC airport.

He was arrested.

What the heck does he "owe" to society?

Double ouch! Arrested for dry firing AND losing a sweet custom gun? Thats cruel and unusual!

What on earth did they arrest him for? Last time I checked that was uh whats the word..Oh yeah LEGAL...

[Flexmoney]

We had a shooter (member of this forum) go to NY for work. He was going to be hotel bound for a bit and took his Brazos limited gun along for dry-fire in the evenings. On his return trip, the declared his gun at the ticket counter at a NYC airport.

He was arrested.

What the heck does he "owe" to society?

Double ouch! Arrested for dry firing AND losing a sweet custom gun? Thats cruel and unusual!

What on earth did they arrest him for? Last time I checked that was uh whats the word..Oh yeah LEGAL...

Same thing, I believe. Possession of a handgun. Had he been traveling through on his way to/from an actual match, I believe he would have been OK under the NYC law.

No ammo. Gun boxed up in his luggage and all. Still...off to jail.

I could come up with a dozen of these stories... Up-standing citizens who...purposely or not, and without any ill intent...got on the wrong side of a gun law and it cost them dearly.

[Miranda]

We had a shooter (member of this forum) go to NY for work. He was going to be hotel bound for a bit and took his Brazos limited gun along for dry-fire in the evenings. On his return trip, the declared his gun at the ticket counter at a NYC airport.

He was arrested.

What the heck does he "owe" to society?

Double ouch! Arrested for dry firing AND losing a sweet custom gun? Thats cruel and unusual!

What on earth did they arrest him for? Last time I checked that was uh whats the word..Oh yeah LEGAL...

That concept of what is legal or not is what the second amendment is all about.

What you think is legal is not what is practiced in law in NY.

That you and I agree about the meaning of the second amendment

does not carry much legal standing in NY.

The particulars of what happened to plaxico look to me like a good case to

use to challenge the laws about firearms in NY.

At some point un-constititional laws and practices have to be challenged

the reason DC's laws took so long to challenge

is because DC did their best to not let it be fought out in open legal courts.

miranda

[JKSNIPER]

Flex and all,

According to local newspaper as well as TV accounts here in NY he DID enter the club and wounded himself in the same thigh which he was already out from football because of his injured hamstring.

Thats how it was discovered he had a firearm...when he shot himself.

The Law HERE is the law he broke.

Not the law in never never land or the future.

There is a lesson here:

KNOW THE LAWS OF THE PLACE YOU LIVE/WORK IN AND FOLLOW THEM.

There are many remidies available for this individual which would have afforded him protection and would have been entirely legal.

NFL has security personnel available to players but many don't want them around for fear if they violate NFL rules while out "partying"their behavior will br reported to the NFL by the protection personnel.

With the money this guy has he could have hired personal protection for himself that also would have been legal but he did not.

He CHOSE to posess an illegal handgun.

He accidentally discharged that handgun causing himself injury then handed that weapon to another to hide it from police.

Sorry but he broke the law.

Not looking to send him to jail for the rest of his life but he did commit a few crimes here.

If you want to argue that the posession should not be against the law thats fine....let him try that defense here......it will not fly.

If by some miracle it did fly and his posession was ruled legal then we still have the issue of the A.D. reckless endangerment/conspiracy/hindering prosecution, tampering with evidence.

If you travel to another state it is incumbent on YOU to know the laws concerning weapons posession of the state you are traveling to as well as those you will pass through (driving) to get to that state.

Don't ask your friends....as I've said here before you don't get your medical advice from a cab driver do you?

Then don't get important legal advice from a plumber, carpenter, etc..go see an attorney...preferably one that has experience in the area of the law you need advice on.

Sorry but anyone who has been shooting long enough to buy a Brazos firearm knows frearms laws are very restrictive in NY and California.

To come here with a Brazos weapon and declare it at the airport without making prior travel inquiries about legality is a foolish act and I'm sorry but I have little or no sympathy for such a person.

I am sorry a shooter lost his firearm but he should have checked on legal carry/transport laws PRIOR to coming into NYS.

I wish the laws were different ....but they're not.

JK

[el pres]

Does'nt NY have a firearm handling license ?? If your within the state line and posses a firearm you need to have a valid NY

one, right ?? Resident or not ?? There was a guy from Salt Lake that flew with his gun to PA but his baggadge was sent

to NY or NJ by mistake, by the airline. Somehow they knew there was a gun in the bag so for him to recieve his bag he

needed to fly to said state to claim it. There he was imediattlly arrested for illegal possesion of a firearm..

What a set-up !!

Ahhh, here you go, I was close: http://www.anjrpc.org/fopalawsuit.htm

Edited December 5, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[chp5]

Here's a suggestion for the BE Forum

* We take up a small collection - I'll donate $10 to the cause

* We find his attorney's mailing address.

* We send Plaxico a BE T-shirt, an inexpensive IWB Glock holster, a one hour class by a NY BE member on safe gun handling, and an NRA membership.

[GentlemanJim]

Here's a suggestion for the BE Forum

* We take up a small collection - I'll donate $10 to the cause

* We find his attorney's mailing address.

* We send Plaxico a BE T-shirt, an inexpensive IWB Glock holster, a one hour class by a NY BE member on safe gun handling, and an NRA membership.

I dont think BE or the NRA should have ANY association with this guy!!!!!

JMHO

Jim

[Miranda]

in a relativly quick suvey of the people here at my work....

not many see this as a second amendment issue...

hmmmm

miranda

[JKSNIPER]

Does'nt NY have a firearm handling license ?? If your within the state line and posses a firearm you need to have a valid NY

one, right ?? Resident or not ?? There was a guy from Salt Lake that flew with his gun to PA but his baggadge was sent

to NY or NJ by mistake, by the airline. Somehow they knew there was a gun in the bag so for him to recieve his bag he

needed to fly to said state to claim it. There he was imediattlly arrested for illegal possesion of a firearm..

What a set-up !!

Ahhh, here you go, I was close: http://www.anjrpc.org/fopalawsuit.htm

Dirty,

The situation with the gentleman from Utah is TOTALLY different from the one we're discussing with respect to the Plaxico shooting.

I feel sorry for the man from Utah and hope his lawsuit prevails in the court.

JK

[el pres]

Does'nt NY have a firearm handling license ?? If your within the state line and posses a firearm you need to have a valid NY

one, right ?? Resident or not ?? There was a guy from Salt Lake that flew with his gun to PA but his baggadge was sent

to NY or NJ by mistake, by the airline. Somehow they knew there was a gun in the bag so for him to recieve his bag he

needed to fly to said state to claim it. There he was imediattlly arrested for illegal possesion of a firearm..

What a set-up !!

Ahhh, here you go, I was close: http://www.anjrpc.org/fopalawsuit.htm

Dirty,

The situation with the gentleman from Utah is TOTALLY different from the one we're discussing with respect to the Plaxico shooting.

I feel sorry for the man from Utah and hope his lawsuit prevails in the court.

JK

I know I am jumping around a bit but the relevance to me is in NY NJ firearm laws, specificaly in having a weapon

on your person. We are discussing how this could be a 2nd Amd case...maybe but the fact we are missing

is just how severe the firearm laws in these states are and so Plaxico has much bigger things to worry about then the 2nd Amd.. If this was a more laxed state and he was looking at only a fine and some comm. service then maybe ?? I am trying to highlight how this may not be the right case to bring to a 2nd Amd. battle and this is not the state where you would want to knowingly break the law carrying to prove a point, the punishment just does not fit the crime in these places and so the personal price is too high IMO ...

[Miranda]

Does'nt NY have a firearm handling license ?? If your within the state line and posses a firearm you need to have a valid NY

one, right ?? Resident or not ?? There was a guy from Salt Lake that flew with his gun to PA but his baggadge was sent

to NY or NJ by mistake, by the airline. Somehow they knew there was a gun in the bag so for him to recieve his bag he

needed to fly to said state to claim it. There he was imediattlly arrested for illegal possesion of a firearm..

What a set-up !!

Ahhh, here you go, I was close: http://www.anjrpc.org/fopalawsuit.htm

Dirty,

The situation with the gentleman from Utah is TOTALLY different from the one we're discussing with respect to the Plaxico shooting.

I feel sorry for the man from Utah and hope his lawsuit prevails in the court.

JK

I know I am jumping around a bit but the relevance to me is in NY NJ firearm laws, specificaly in having a weapon

on your person. We are discussing how this could be a 2nd Amd case...maybe but the fact we are missing

is just how severe the firearm laws in these states are and so Plaxico has much bigger things to worry about then the 2nd Amd.. If this was a more laxed state and he was looking at only a fine and some comm. service then maybe ?? I am trying to highlight how this may not be the right case to bring to a 2nd Amd. battle and this is not the state where you would want to knowingly break the law carrying to prove a point, the punishment just does not fit the crime in these places and so the personal price is too high IMO ...

well... I have to admit that NY is not a good state to deliberately go to in order to practice civil disobedence.

I will add that this might not be a open and shut clean case.

I want to point out that I can see your points.

Here is why it is a good second amendment case.

Think of what 'case' you could possibly have to get the SCOTUS to make a ruling.

A man was in posession of a weapon.

There is nothing else that gives any one reason to any reason to believe criminal intent.

There is far more reason to believe personal defense is the major reason.

At this point the local law is found to be violated by the fact of possession.

This Looks like a good case to me.

[el pres]

This Looks like a good case to me.

Well maybe, but a man discharged a firearm within city limits, the discharge was in, or outside, a public

gathering place, the discharge caused bodily harm, the man conspired to hide evidence ??? I dont know ??

Also the SCOTUS ruling specifically stated self protection "in the home". I'm all for it but what would be

the standing of the case ??

Edited December 6, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[Miranda]

Hi DIRTY CHAMBER,

The real question is whether or not he is allowed to bear an arm.

more specificly, if NY has laws that infringe on that right.

The last time I looked at the subject, NY city laws do not allow an ordinary citizen to carry any arms

and effectivly ordinary citizens can't get a carry permit for a handgun.

Combine the two.

a right against local law banning the right.

I don't think anyone will disagree with that NY city"s laws infringe.

They may start using the word 'reasonable' about limiting the right.

at that point I think our SCOTUS will want to help define 'reasonable.'

miranda

[ShaunH]

Does'nt NY have a firearm handling license ?? If your within the state line and posses a firearm you need to have a valid NY

one, right ?? Resident or not ?? There was a guy from Salt Lake that flew with his gun to PA but his baggadge was sent

to NY or NJ by mistake, by the airline. Somehow they knew there was a gun in the bag so for him to recieve his bag he

needed to fly to said state to claim it. There he was imediattlly arrested for illegal possesion of a firearm..

What a set-up !!

Ahhh, here you go, I was close: http://www.anjrpc.org/fopalawsuit.htm

Dirty,

The situation with the gentleman from Utah is TOTALLY different from the one we're discussing with respect to the Plaxico shooting.

I feel sorry for the man from Utah and hope his lawsuit prevails in the court.

JK

You're dealing with the Sullivan Laws up in New York, correct John.

[JKSNIPER]

Personally?

I hope the laws get changed.

Professionally?

I hope they make an example out of this guy.

He discharged a firearm in a crowded place and fortunately only injured himself but he committed a series of crimes.

Even if you take away the posession crime you still have reckless endangerment, conspiracy, tampering with evidence etc....

If you buy a firearm you take on a certain amount of responsibility with it.

One is responsible/safe handling of the firearm.

He had the weapon tucked into his waistband...no holster.....I don't think anyone here would classify that carry method as being anywhere near safe.

I don't know the weapons type (conflicting local reports) but if it had a safety it was either disabled or not being used...either way thats negligent.

The guy at minimum made a totally knucklehead move and when it hurt him he compounded it by attempting to cover it up.

Not saying he should be hung up in the town square but he should be hit with more than a fine.

JK

[Stuck in C]

Sad part is PB has plenty of money to pay for proper firearms training, including how to safely carry a Glock and applicable laws. I'm a generally broke working person and I still cough up a couple of hundred a year to keep current with training. Also, if he's worried about his Bling he could hire a properly permitted bodyguard (not one of his gangsta buddies) when he goes clubbing in NY where he can't carry legally. An option most of us don't have, which is why the laws should be challenged or changed. For my friends in the firearms training business, here's a new opportunity: firearms training for NFL teams. If I were a coach or owner and I was aware my players were carrying, I would require it.